MSB, LSB, Patch Changes Oh My!

Discussion in 'alt.steinberg.cubase' started by Steve Latham, Oct 11, 2006.

  1. Steve Latham

    Steve Latham Guest

    Hello All,

    I'm using Cubase SE and a Yamaha MOTIF ES Rack. The MOTIF has, oh, about a
    billion sounds in it.

    I'm teaching a class and trying at this point to stay away from the heavy
    editing and bulk transfers at this point. So for now, I want them to put in
    Patch Changes.

    I've downloaded a Patch List for the MOTIF and they can access everything on
    it.

    But, if I want them to insert a Patch Change within a track, say in measure
    16, how do I get to the "extra" Patches - you can insert 1-128 (or 0-127 as
    well hereafter) easily enough in the Event List. But how do I get to 128+?

    The MOTIF book says for instance Preset 2 is MSB=63 and LSB=1 (Preset 1 is
    LSB=0)

    Do I insert an MSB and LSB message to make the Patch change?

    Cubase lets you insert a Bank Select MSB as a Control Message. There are two
    data fields, one that says "Bank Sel MSB" and the other that's a numeral. Is
    that where 63 goes?

    I'm going to assume that I would also insert a Bank Select LSB as a Control
    Message and in it's second data field (called Data 2, Data 1 again says
    "Bank Sel LSB") put the value of 1 (for Preset 2).

    But that seems to me to just select the bank. Do I then need to still send
    yet another message to select the Patch number within that bank?

    Am I even on the right track?

    TIA for any help.

    Steve
     
    Steve Latham, Oct 11, 2006
    #1
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  2. Steve Latham

    Jos Geluk Guest

    Steve Latham schreef:
    > Hello All,
    >
    > I'm using Cubase SE and a Yamaha MOTIF ES Rack. The MOTIF has, oh, about a
    > billion sounds in it.
    >
    > I'm teaching a class and trying at this point to stay away from the heavy
    > editing and bulk transfers at this point. So for now, I want them to put in
    > Patch Changes.
    >
    > I've downloaded a Patch List for the MOTIF and they can access everything on
    > it.
    >
    > But, if I want them to insert a Patch Change within a track, say in measure
    > 16, how do I get to the "extra" Patches - you can insert 1-128 (or 0-127 as
    > well hereafter) easily enough in the Event List. But how do I get to 128+?
    >
    > The MOTIF book says for instance Preset 2 is MSB=63 and LSB=1 (Preset 1 is
    > LSB=0)
    >
    > Do I insert an MSB and LSB message to make the Patch change?
    >
    > Cubase lets you insert a Bank Select MSB as a Control Message. There are two
    > data fields, one that says "Bank Sel MSB" and the other that's a numeral. Is
    > that where 63 goes?
    >
    > I'm going to assume that I would also insert a Bank Select LSB as a Control
    > Message and in it's second data field (called Data 2, Data 1 again says
    > "Bank Sel LSB") put the value of 1 (for Preset 2).
    >
    > But that seems to me to just select the bank. Do I then need to still send
    > yet another message to select the Patch number within that bank?
    >
    > Am I even on the right track?


    To answer that last question first: yes. I assume the Motif works a bit
    like my old Roland JV2080. You do a bank select MSB, then a LSB, then a
    PC. To play it safe you would do this whole sequence for each patch change.
    To find out which preset/patch combination corresponds to which
    MSB/LSB/PC you will have to consult the manual for the Motif. The manual
    to the Roland is not terribly clear but at least it lists
    presets/patches and corresponding MSB/LSB/PC values. Otherwise, it won't
    hurt the Motif if you experiment a bit. You can try commands out
    directly from the List editor. You should have two Controller events,
    MSB and LSB respectively, with the values as "Data 2"; and a Program
    Change event with the desired patch as "Data 1". Put these three events
    in a loop and watch the Motif.

    Hope none of your students reads this or I'll have spoilt their homework :)

    Jos.

    --
    Ardis Park Music
    www.ardispark.nl
     
    Jos Geluk, Oct 11, 2006
    #2
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  3. Steve Latham

    Steve Latham Guest

    "Jos Geluk" <> wrote in message
    news:452d6189$0$1094$...

    [snip]
    >
    > To answer that last question first: yes. I assume the Motif works a bit
    > like my old Roland JV2080. You do a bank select MSB, then a LSB, then a
    > PC. To play it safe you would do this whole sequence for each patch
    > change.


    Ok.

    Now, one silly question. When I select my original patch it puts nothing in
    the sequence. But would I be correct in assuming that when a selection is
    made in the patch list, that Cubase sends all three of these messages at
    some point (like when making the selection, or starting the sequence)?

    If so, would it be wiser to "convert" the patch selection to a "real" event
    within the track itself?

    Is there and easy way to do this? Does the MIDI Merge in Loop feature
    convert the patch selection to a "real" message (it does for the rest of the
    Track Parameters).

    Thanks Jos,

    Steve
     
    Steve Latham, Oct 12, 2006
    #3
  4. Steve Latham

    Jos Geluk Guest

    Steve Latham schreef:

    > Now, one silly question. When I select my original patch it puts nothing in
    > the sequence. But would I be correct in assuming that when a selection is
    > made in the patch list, that Cubase sends all three of these messages at
    > some point (like when making the selection, or starting the sequence)?


    Yes, I think it also happens at the start of playback, and it certainly
    does when selecting the patch.

    > If so, would it be wiser to "convert" the patch selection to a "real" event
    > within the track itself?


    It depends on how you want to work. The trouble with that would be that
    your Inspector would still say "Strings" while your Motif is already
    playing "Brass", say. I'm sure that would drive me barking mad after a
    while.
    I myself never use patch selection events, but then I rarely run out of
    the 16 midi channels (using mostly VST instruments). If needed I think I
    would in any case use separate tracks, for clarity, one called "Strings"
    and the other "Brass", and put the bank/program messages at the start of
    the first MIDI event. Or put them in a separate event and colour them
    shocking pink.

    > Is there and easy way to do this? Does the MIDI Merge in Loop feature
    > convert the patch selection to a "real" message (it does for the rest of the
    > Track Parameters).


    I don't think so, but then I can't really answer that question, as I
    never use it. I just tried it on some MIDI event and it just copied the
    note events, but did not insert any patch selection events.
    If you do a MIDI export, however, you get the option to include the
    patch (tick "Inspector Patch") and that neatly gives you the two
    controllers and PC event, as discussed. You will see them when you
    reimport the MIDI file. But I wouldn't call that an "easy" way. Perhaps
    you could stick the three messages in a MIDI event, and export them as
    "patch_change.mid" and reimport them as needed.

    Jos.

    --
    Ardis Park Music
    www.ardispark.nl
     
    Jos Geluk, Oct 12, 2006
    #4
  5. Steve Latham

    Aphelion Guest

    On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 16:04:54 GMT, "Steve Latham" <>
    wrote:

    >Now, one silly question. When I select my original patch it puts nothing in
    >the sequence. But would I be correct in assuming that when a selection is
    >made in the patch list, that Cubase sends all three of these messages at
    >some point (like when making the selection, or starting the sequence)?


    Does Cubase SE have MIDI Plugins?

    If so, look at "MidiControl", MSB and LSB parameters can also be set
    up in that particular MIDI plugin.

    Also, there are sneaky ways to do this.
    It requires patching Cubase MIDI OUT to MIDI IN.

    However, before doing this, two preference items need to be set.

    -MIDI THRU is set to OFF

    -Under MIDI Filter make sure that Controllers and Program changes are
    -not being filtered.

    Start Cubse recording and go to MIDI Patch selection and choose your
    patch.

    If nothing else, doing this once will give you an idea of what the
    full MSB, LSB sequence is to get the required patches as track data.

    Ap
     
    Aphelion, Oct 12, 2006
    #5
  6. Steve Latham

    Steve Latham Guest

    "Jos Geluk" <> wrote in message
    news:452e91e4$0$18247$...
    > Steve Latham schreef:
    >
    >> Now, one silly question. When I select my original patch it puts nothing
    >> in the sequence. But would I be correct in assuming that when a selection
    >> is made in the patch list, that Cubase sends all three of these messages
    >> at some point (like when making the selection, or starting the sequence)?

    >
    > Yes, I think it also happens at the start of playback, and it certainly
    > does when selecting the patch.
    >
    >> If so, would it be wiser to "convert" the patch selection to a "real"
    >> event within the track itself?

    >
    > It depends on how you want to work. The trouble with that would be that
    > your Inspector would still say "Strings" while your Motif is already
    > playing "Brass", say. I'm sure that would drive me barking mad after a
    > while.


    It will them to, so I might just have them turn the patch to "off".

    > I myself never use patch selection events, but then I rarely run out of
    > the 16 midi channels (using mostly VST instruments).


    True, but I want them to learn what to do if they do! In the old days, many
    sequencers were limited to 16 (or even 8!) tracks so if you wanted 17
    sounds, you either had to a patch change somewhere.

    If needed I think I
    > would in any case use separate tracks, for clarity, one called "Strings"
    > and the other "Brass", and put the bank/program messages at the start of
    > the first MIDI event. Or put them in a separate event and colour them
    > shocking pink.


    Yes - this would be the "easy" way to do it. Nowadays, with virtually
    unlimted tracks, you could organize your strings bowed, and strings pizz on
    a pair of tracks to "switch" back and forth.

    I'm going to force them to use 24 sounds or so (and no drum patches so they
    can't cheat!) so they'll have to insert some changes. Even if they use 24
    tracks thwy still only got 16 channels!!!

    >
    >> Is there and easy way to do this? Does the MIDI Merge in Loop feature
    >> convert the patch selection to a "real" message (it does for the rest of
    >> the Track Parameters).

    >
    > I don't think so, but then I can't really answer that question, as I never
    > use it. I just tried it on some MIDI event and it just copied the note
    > events, but did not insert any patch selection events.
    > If you do a MIDI export, however, you get the option to include the patch
    > (tick "Inspector Patch") and that neatly gives you the two controllers and
    > PC event, as discussed. You will see them when you reimport the MIDI file.
    > But I wouldn't call that an "easy" way.


    Ahh - OK = actually this will be good when we do get to importing exporting
    and bulk dumps. Thanks for the hint!

    Thanks as always,

    Steve
     
    Steve Latham, Oct 12, 2006
    #6
  7. Steve Latham

    Steve Latham Guest

    "Aphelion" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 16:04:54 GMT, "Steve Latham" <>
    > wrote:
    >
    >>Now, one silly question. When I select my original patch it puts nothing
    >>in
    >>the sequence. But would I be correct in assuming that when a selection is
    >>made in the patch list, that Cubase sends all three of these messages at
    >>some point (like when making the selection, or starting the sequence)?

    >
    > Does Cubase SE have MIDI Plugins?
    >
    > If so, look at "MidiControl", MSB and LSB parameters can also be set
    > up in that particular MIDI plugin.
    >
    > Also, there are sneaky ways to do this.
    > It requires patching Cubase MIDI OUT to MIDI IN.
    >
    > However, before doing this, two preference items need to be set.
    >
    > -MIDI THRU is set to OFF
    >
    > -Under MIDI Filter make sure that Controllers and Program changes are
    > -not being filtered.
    >
    > Start Cubse recording and go to MIDI Patch selection and choose your
    > patch.
    >
    > If nothing else, doing this once will give you an idea of what the
    > full MSB, LSB sequence is to get the required patches as track data.
    >
    > Ap


    Thanks - good for me to figure them out - not good for my students to do
    though! Tell them to change a preference setting and no one who comes in
    after them will be able to get anything to work!!!

    Steve
     
    Steve Latham, Oct 12, 2006
    #7
  8. Steve Latham

    Aphelion Guest

    On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 21:13:00 GMT, "Steve Latham" <>
    wrote:


    >"Aphelion" <> wrote in message


    >> Also, there are sneaky ways to do this.
    >> It requires patching Cubase MIDI OUT to MIDI IN.
    >>
    >> However, before doing this, two preference items need to be set.
    >>
    >> -MIDI THRU is set to OFF
    >>
    >> -Under MIDI Filter make sure that Controllers and Program changes are
    >> -not being filtered.
    >>
    >> Start Cubse recording and go to MIDI Patch selection and choose your
    >> patch.
    >>
    >> If nothing else, doing this once will give you an idea of what the
    >> full MSB, LSB sequence is to get the required patches as track data.
    >>
    >> Ap

    >
    >Thanks - good for me to figure them out - not good for my students to do
    >though! Tell them to change a preference setting and no one who comes in
    >after them will be able to get anything to work!!!
    >
    >Steve


    Steve, yes, I agree, changing a preference could be something that
    messes things up, however.... since you can't really hear anything
    with THRU deselected most would switch it back on.

    Still, once you have the data format , it should be much easier.
    If you go this route to check it out be sure and switch to all the
    banks, eack bank will have a separate DATA 1 and DATA 2 value.
    My SY77 keyboard uses three data entries in the list editor
    to change bank and patch.

    Looks like this:

    Data 1 Data 2
    CC 0 (bank select MSB) 117

    CC 32 (bank select LSB) 10

    Program Change 33 0


    Ap
     
    Aphelion, Oct 13, 2006
    #8
  9. Steve Latham

    Steve Latham Guest

    "Aphelion" <> wrote in message
    news:...

    [snip]

    >
    > Looks like this:
    >
    > Data 1 Data 2
    > CC 0 (bank select MSB) 117
    >
    > CC 32 (bank select LSB) 10
    >
    > Program Change 33 0
    >
    >



    Thank Ap - this confirms what I though, especially since you have a Yamaha!

    Steve
     
    Steve Latham, Oct 13, 2006
    #9
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