I am just getting started with computer-based recording, and I need help with a problem I'm having. (Buffer settings?!) I've messed around with cassette multitrackers in the past, but I'm a total newbie when it comes to digital recording, so try to bear with me, and PLEASE, go easy on me! I will be recording mainly acoustic instruments (fiddle, dulcimer, banjo, guitar, etc.) using a condenser mic, one track recorded at a time, and minimal (if any) processing. Probably four or five audio tracks maximum per "song". And no MIDI! (Sounds like a tough job, right?) I just installed my Focusrite Saffire interface and the Cubase LE v1.0.8 software on my (dedicated) laptop 3 days ago. I've managed to get the system up and running, to the point where I can record a track and then record an accompanying second track. I've also set up and "tuned" the laptop as advised on the MusicXP, Cubase "Newbie Zone" and Sweetwater sites. Seems to work fine! I guess I figured that given the relatively low demand my recording needs would place on my system, I wouldn't need to mess around much with changing the default program settings. But Noooo! Here is my problem: I can record, play back and overdub tracks with no problems at all, as long as I select sample rates of 48, 88.2 or 96KHz. BUT If I try to record (or simply monitor the input signal) at 44.1KHz I hear a buzzy, metallic distortion overlaying the signal, which varies with signal level. There seems to be no difference whether I use 16-bit or 24-bit format, the distortion is there as long as I am set to 44.1KHz. There is no noise if no signal is present. I have a hunch my problem is related to "buffer settings" and "latency", but I am TOTALLY stumped about how to proceed with making the proper adjustments! I am not usually timid about experimenting with computer and software settings, but I am so unfamilliar with this area that I really need advice before proceeding, so I don't really screw something up! I Know this should be really simple, but I'm so frustrated and I really need basic guidance! I've read the Saffire setup and users guides (absolutely no mention of buffer settings). I've read the Cubase LE Getting Started guide, and It does mention where to change the settings, but isn't specific enough, and I'm still confused and intimidated! I've also checked the Focusrite website and the Steinberg Knowledge Base, and both were shockingly unhelpful! Read on... HERE is why I am confused: If I open the Cubase LE Device Setup/VST Multitrack panel here is what I see: http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/timepup/CubaseDefaultBufferSettings.jpg Basically, I see three possible places to change buffer settings or adjust various settings (the main Device Setup window, the Focusrite ASIO Control Panel, and the "Expert settings" window). But all three appear to allow adjustment of completely different parameters! The main window gives me a choice of "Number of Disk Buffers" (ranging from 3-12) and "Disk Buffer Size" (six choices, 32KB to 256KB). The Focusrite ASIO Control Panel allows selection of "FireWire Buffer size" (ranging from .5ms to 20.0ms) and "ASIO buffer size" (4.0ms to 40.0ms). (The Expert Settings window also allows various settings to be changed, but I don't think I need to mess with those.) The Focusrite ASIO Control Panel is the ONLY place I see any "indication" or display of an actual latency figure. (It shows "Input Latency" of 11.6ms and "Output Latency" of 15.5ms with my current, "default as installed" program settings.) Now...the various tutorials I've seen on the web all discuss changing "buffer size" to achieve lowest latency, but THEY ALL DEFINE BUFFER SIZE IN TERMS OF "SAMPLES"! (As in 256 samples, 512 samples, and so on.) I don't see anywhere in the Cubase control settings to select a buffer size in "samples"! I only see units of "KB" and "ms"! So ANYWAY, how should I proceed to solve the "buzzy distortion at 44.1KHz" problem? Which "buffer settings" do I need to change to "lower my latency"? Looking at my default program settings (and the various possible adjustments shown above), any advice as to what YOU would change to optimize my setup? Also... When folks discuss lowering latency, they generally advise shooting for a figure around 5ms or lower. Are they talking about the "input latency", "output latency" (see above) or both added together, or even some other value? How does one generally "find" what the latency of a system is? I am really sorry about the length of this post! I probably sound a bit desperate, but I KNOW that the concept of latency should be simple (even if optimizing latency in a given system might not be) and I hope I'll look back on this next week and laugh. And I don't even know for sure yet if improper buffer settings are the cause of my problem! Thanks so much for any advice or wisdom (or wit!). Ken _________________ Dell Inspiron 5150 laptop Intel Pentium 4 @ 3.02GHz (Hyperthreading) 1.25 GB RAM 60GB HD (4200RPM, 80MB cache) Windows XP Professional Focusrite Saffire FireWire interface Cubase LE 1.0.8 Audio-Technica AT4050 microphones (pair)
On 15 Apr 2007 17:36:55 -0700, "spampup" <> wrote: Hey Ken, nice detailed post. I'm replying after relevant sections of your message. >I am just getting started with computer-based recording, and I need >help with a problem I'm having. (Buffer settings?!) > >I've messed around with cassette multitrackers in the past, but I'm a >total newbie when it comes to digital recording, so try to bear with >me, and PLEASE, go easy on me! > >I will be recording mainly acoustic instruments (fiddle, dulcimer, >banjo, guitar, etc.) using a condenser mic, one track recorded at a >time, and minimal (if any) processing. Probably four or five audio >tracks maximum per "song". And no MIDI! (Sounds like a tough job, >right?) > >I just installed my Focusrite Saffire interface and the Cubase LE >v1.0.8 software on my (dedicated) laptop 3 days ago. I've managed to >get the system up and running, to the point where I can record a track >and then record an accompanying second track. > >I've also set up and "tuned" the laptop as advised on the MusicXP, >Cubase "Newbie Zone" and Sweetwater sites. Seems to work fine! > >I guess I figured that given the relatively low demand my recording >needs would place on my system, I wouldn't need to mess around much >with changing the default program settings. But Noooo! > > >Here is my problem: > >I can record, play back and overdub tracks with no problems at all, as >long as I select sample rates of 48, 88.2 or 96KHz. > >BUT If I try to record (or simply monitor the input signal) at 44.1KHz >I hear a buzzy, metallic distortion overlaying the signal, which >varies with signal level. Ok, this may or may not be latency related, some audio drivers are written so they only support certain rates at certain buffer settings, Truthfully, this shouldn't happen were the Focusrite audio drivers mature. M-Audio cards/drivers come to mind. >There seems to be no difference whether I use 16-bit or 24-bit format, >the distortion is there as long as I am set to 44.1KHz. There is no >noise if no signal is present. > >I have a hunch my problem is related to "buffer settings" and >"latency", but I am TOTALLY stumped about how to proceed with making >the proper adjustments! > >I am not usually timid about experimenting with computer and software >settings, but I am so unfamilliar with this area that I really need >advice before proceeding, so I don't really screw something up! I Know >this should be really simple, but I'm so frustrated and I really need >basic guidance! > >I've read the Saffire setup and users guides (absolutely no mention of >buffer settings). I've read the Cubase LE Getting Started guide, and >It does mention where to change the settings, but isn't specific >enough, and I'm still confused and intimidated! I've also checked the >Focusrite website and the Steinberg Knowledge Base, and both were >shockingly unhelpful! Read on... > >HERE is why I am confused: > >If I open the Cubase LE Device Setup/VST Multitrack panel here is what >I see: > >http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/timepup/CubaseDefaultBufferSettings.jpg > >Basically, I see three possible places to change buffer settings or >adjust various settings (the main Device Setup window, the Focusrite >ASIO Control Panel, and the "Expert settings" window). But all three >appear to allow adjustment of completely different parameters! > >The main window gives me a choice of "Number of Disk Buffers" (ranging >from 3-12) and "Disk Buffer Size" (six choices, 32KB to 256KB). Don't need to mess with these. >The Focusrite ASIO Control Panel allows selection of "FireWire Buffer >size" (ranging from .5ms to 20.0ms) and "ASIO buffer size" (4.0ms to >40.0ms). Here's where you will change the buffer settings. I would try the Firewire buffer first, try it at it's next highest setting. If the result is the same set it back to the original value. Next, try the ASIO buffer, again, set it to it's next higher setting, see if that doesn't get rid of the distortion. There's one other setting that will could affect this. When changing sample rates, the Focusrite may be losing sync with it's internal clock. Do you have access to the Focusrite control panel outside of Cubase LE? First setup the Focustire panel at 44.1, locked to internal clock (should be default). Then boot into Cubase and see if the distortion is still there. If so... do the buffer setting dance above. >(The Expert Settings window also allows various settings to be >changed, but I don't think I need to mess with those.) No change here either. >The Focusrite ASIO Control Panel is the ONLY place I see any >"indication" or display of an actual latency figure. >(It shows "Input Latency" of 11.6ms and "Output Latency" of 15.5ms >with my current, "default as installed" program settings.) > >Now...the various tutorials I've seen on the web all discuss changing >"buffer size" to achieve lowest latency, but THEY ALL DEFINE BUFFER >SIZE IN TERMS OF "SAMPLES"! (As in 256 samples, 512 samples, and so >on.) Same measurement... a 512sample buffer = 10.6ms at 48 and 11.6 at 44.1. >Which "buffer settings" do I need to change to "lower my latency"? This problem is probably not caused by needing a higher or lower latency, but rather an incompatibility between some sample rates and buffer sizes. Either that or the clock problem mentioned above. > >Looking at my default program settings (and the various possible >adjustments shown above), any advice as to what YOU would change to >optimize my setup? > > >Also... When folks discuss lowering latency, they generally advise >shooting for a figure around 5ms or lower. That's if they're monitoring in "real time" through the software. I believe you're using the Focusrite's direct monitoring feature... Is that right? Ap
THANKS for the reply, Aphelion, This stuff is starting to make sense to me now. I wonder if you could clear something up for me (see quote below)... >http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/timepup/CubaseDefaultBufferSet... >>Basically, I see three possible places to change buffer settings or >>adjust various settings (the main Device Setup window, the Focusrite >>ASIO Control Panel, and the "Expert settings" window). But all three >>appear to allow adjustment of completely different parameters! > > >>The main window gives me a choice of "Number of Disk Buffers" (ranging >>from 3-12) and "Disk Buffer Size" (six choices, 32KB to 256KB). > > > >Don't need to mess with these. What is the effect of changing the number and size of the Disk Buffers in the VST Multitrack panel? (They were set to 4 buffers of 128KB by default, and I haven't changed the settings). What do these buffers "do"? How would I know if I need to make any changes here? The Cubase manual states that allowing more and larger buffers here will "make the system run more smoothly", but at the expense of "higher latency". Is this "latency" the same as the latency affected by the FireWire buffer size and ASIO Buffer size in the Saffire control panel? Thanks again for any Info! Ken
On 17 Apr 2007 06:20:08 -0700, spampup <> wrote: >THANKS for the reply, Aphelion, > >This stuff is starting to make sense to me now. I wonder if you could >clear something up for me (see quote below)... > > >>http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/timepup/CubaseDefaultBufferSet... > > >>>Basically, I see three possible places to change buffer settings or >>>adjust various settings (the main Device Setup window, the Focusrite >>>ASIO Control Panel, and the "Expert settings" window). But all three >>>appear to allow adjustment of completely different parameters! >> >> >>>The main window gives me a choice of "Number of Disk Buffers" (ranging >>>from 3-12) and "Disk Buffer Size" (six choices, 32KB to 256KB). >> >> >> >>Don't need to mess with these. > >What is the effect of changing the number and size of the Disk Buffers >in the VST Multitrack panel? (They were set to 4 buffers of 128KB by >default, and I haven't changed the settings). > >What do these buffers "do"? > >How would I know if I need to make any changes here? The performance meter isn't showing continuous disk overloads is it? Often the disk meter will blip into the red if you're playing audio and scroll, or when the sequencer starts... that is NOT a problem. The Disk buffer settings are a hold-over from the earlier versions of Cubase, from a time when hard drives and processors were much slower and compensation had to be built into different parts of the software. The "Disk Buffer" settings were removed from later versions of Cubase SE,SL & SX. As far as I know LE is and will probably remain at the level of version 1.xx. Still, a very powerfull program to ship OEM with hardware. >The Cubase manual states that allowing more and larger buffers here >will "make the system run more smoothly", but at the expense of >"higher latency". Is this "latency" the same as the latency affected >by the FireWire buffer size and ASIO Buffer size in the Saffire >control panel? I think this is a different kind of latency, and affects the overall feel of the program as the more and larger disk buffers that have to load data, the program may feel a little sluggish. (on a Pentium II at 350mhz) Don't worry about the disk buffers, default is fine. What about the distortion? Ap
Thanks again, Aphelion, > > The performance meter isn't showing continuous disk overloads is it? > > Often the disk meter will blip into the red if you're playing audio > and scroll, or when the sequencer starts... that is NOT a problem. > No, the upper (Processor Load ) section of the meter has been staying around 10% or less with the experimenting I've been doing (one or two microphone tracks at a time). Never even close to overload. I've never even seen the lower (Hard Disk Transfer Rate) meter turn on at all! By the way, I've added a LaCie 250GB FireWire HD to the system ("daisy- chained" to the jack on the back of the Saffire) since my original post. > > What about the distortion? > I've set the Firewire Buffer Size to .5 ms, and the ASIO Buffer Size to 1.0ms in the Focusrite ASIO Conrol Panel. The panel shows Input Latency of 2.6ms and Output Latency of 3.5ms. The distortion has disappeared. I am not hearing any distortion as long as I set the ASIO Buffer Size to 9.0ms or less. Is there a "down side" to setting the FireWire and ASIO buffer settings to thier lowest settings? Or as long as there is no audible distortion, no clicks or dropouts, and the Performance Meters stay out of overload should I assume everything is OK? Thanks so much for the help. I've learned a LOT over the past week! Ken
On 19 Apr 2007 11:16:17 -0700, spampup <> wrote: >Thanks again, Aphelion, > >> >> What about the distortion? >> > >I've set the Firewire Buffer Size to .5 ms, and the ASIO Buffer Size >to 1.0ms in the Focusrite ASIO Conrol Panel. The panel shows Input >Latency of 2.6ms and Output Latency of 3.5ms. The distortion has >disappeared. I am not hearing any distortion as long as I set the ASIO >Buffer Size to 9.0ms or less. >Is there a "down side" to setting the FireWire and ASIO buffer >settings to thier lowest settings? Or as long as there is no audible >distortion, no clicks or dropouts, and the Performance Meters stay out >of overload should I assume everything is OK? Well... you're working your PC harder than it needs to, the lower the ASIO buffer the more often the buffer has to be filled and emptied which is a processor task. Not really sure about the firewire buffer. I would definitely raise the buffer a bit higher, so that your Input/Output latency is doubled. It's not something you're going to notice unless you're a concert pianist playing a VSTi instrument. >Thanks so much for the help. I've learned a LOT over the past week! Enjoy Ap
On 19 Apr 2007 11:16:17 -0700, spampup <> wrote: >Is there a "down side" to setting the FireWire and ASIO buffer >settings to thier lowest settings? Or as long as there is no audible >distortion, no clicks or dropouts, and the Performance Meters stay out >of overload should I assume everything is OK? If it sounds good, it's good.
