<I just submitted a short story about the situation and events to slashdot> I'm thinking maybe I could write a small article for "Computer Music" magazine about this newsgroup/forum situation (I write for them regularly). But I need everybody here to make some suggestions on what appraoch the article should take. If we put this together correctly, Cakewalk might actually make BOTH groups available if they're embarrassed enough publicly. I am open to suggestions. -- Regards, Ted Perlman
I would not even bother with it, Ted. This groups feels just like the old one. Why slag on Cake for making a dumb decision to kill their ng? I think they know how most people feel about it. 95% of the people were pissed, 9% were indifferent, and the remaining 11% don't care either way. "Ted Perlman" <> wrote in message news:f1frb.5799$... > <I just submitted a short story about the situation and events to slashdot> > > I'm thinking maybe I could write a small article for "Computer Music" > magazine about this newsgroup/forum situation (I write for them regularly). > > But I need everybody here to make some suggestions on what appraoch the > article should take. If we put this together correctly, Cakewalk might > actually make BOTH groups available if they're embarrassed enough publicly. > > I am open to suggestions. > > > > -- > > Regards, > > Ted Perlman > > >
In <news:Bdfrb.7213$Zb7.622@fed1read01>, Gordon Gecko said: > Why slag on Cake for making a dumb decision to kill their ng? I > think they know how most people feel about it. 95% of the people > were pissed, 9% were indifferent, and the remaining 11% don't care > either way. What about the remainning 50%-plus-one? ((U)) M
In news:f1frb.5799$ the killer robot "Ted Perlman" <> grabbed the controls of the spaceship cakewalk.audio and pressed these buttons... > I'm thinking maybe I could write a small article for "Computer Music" > magazine about this newsgroup/forum situation (I write for them > regularly). > > But I need everybody here to make some suggestions on what appraoch > the article should take. If we put this together correctly, Cakewalk > might actually make BOTH groups available if they're embarrassed > enough publicly. > > I am open to suggestions. My suggestion would be for us to never get our balls in the hands of cakewalk again. They have demonstrated that they can play God, and smash our community on a whim. I'm all for letting the truth be known, but am 100% against ever getting on their servers again. My $.02 -- Remove YourHeadFromYourAss to reply by email. _______ _____ ___ _____ ____ / ___/ / / __/ |/ / |/ / _ )/ __ \ / (_ / /__/ _// / / _ / /_/ / \___/____/___/_/|_/_/|_/____/\____/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- Glennbo These go to eleven Non-Linear Sound http://www.soundclick.com/glennbo Hear My Music http://www.soundclick.com/jambits
In <news:f1frb.5799$>, Ted Perlman said: > <I just submitted a short story about the situation and events to > slashdot> > > I'm thinking maybe I could write a small article for "Computer Music" > magazine about this newsgroup/forum situation (I write for them > regularly). > > But I need everybody here to make some suggestions on what appraoch > the article should take. If we put this together correctly, Cakewalk > might actually make BOTH groups available if they're embarrassed > enough publicly. > > I am open to suggestions. *IF* you're going to write an article (and I'm not sure it's such a good idea, though it might be if done just right,) avoiding much, if any, reference to the anger and the flames is essential. Just the facts, man. A bit of history of how Cake's got their user support from its users so far, and the reasons those longtime, supportive users feel the way they do about about not being consulted or accomodated. It's not fair to just dump on them... but if the headlights are shoe brightly enough in their eyes, maybe some of the folks in the passenger seats will see how naive and defenseless this move was and easy it would be to mow them down. ((U)) M
Hi Ted, how about just discribing the sequence of events as they unfolded. Scott "Ted Perlman" <> wrote in message news:f1frb.5799$... > <I just submitted a short story about the situation and events to slashdot> > > I'm thinking maybe I could write a small article for "Computer Music" > magazine about this newsgroup/forum situation (I write for them regularly). > > But I need everybody here to make some suggestions on what appraoch the > article should take. If we put this together correctly, Cakewalk might > actually make BOTH groups available if they're embarrassed enough publicly. > > I am open to suggestions. > > > > -- > > Regards, > > Ted Perlman > > >
On Sat, 08 Nov 2003 23:31:23 GMT, "Ted Perlman" <> wrote: ><I just submitted a short story about the situation and events to slashdot> > >I'm thinking maybe I could write a small article for "Computer Music" >magazine about this newsgroup/forum situation (I write for them regularly). > >But I need everybody here to make some suggestions on what appraoch the >article should take. If we put this together correctly, Cakewalk might >actually make BOTH groups available if they're embarrassed enough publicly. > >I am open to suggestions. Yes, yes, yes. Such articles have to have a point beyond just news, so I suggest that the theme is the destruction of the amazing store of user-knowledge. Prediction: editors are afraid of anything actionable, so, here's hoping they have the balls. -OF
On Sat, 08 Nov 2003 18:31:23 -0500, Ted Perlman wrote: > <I just submitted a short story about the situation and events to > slashdot> > > I'm thinking maybe I could write a small article for "Computer Music" > magazine about this newsgroup/forum situation (I write for them > regularly). > > But I need everybody here to make some suggestions on what appraoch the > article should take. If we put this together correctly, Cakewalk might > actually make BOTH groups available if they're embarrassed enough > publicly. > > I am open to suggestions. Hi Ted, I think that an article telling what happened might be worth writing. The Cakewalk newsgroups on the news.cakewalk.com server was in my opinion an excellent resource. The bakers didn't censor or interfere with the dicsussions at all which was pretty amazing, considering some of the points of views that were expressed at times (esp. on the coffeehouse newsgroup). With us moving over to a Usenet cakewalk.audio newsgroup we still have all the benefits of the previous one and we're going to have all our messages archived and searchable on google.com. That's a major benefit and maybe we should have done this years ago just for that alone The only negative thing I see is that I'll now have to join and occasionally monitor Cakewalk's forums. I'm already splitting my reading time between cakewalk.audio, rec.audio.pro, the mackie UAD-1 forum, the unofficial UAD-1 forum which is actually better than the official one, and the gearslutz forum. So, I guess what's another forum? It's a bit of a pain in that it's just one more place to visit, but other than that - no big deal. Time will tell as to how it'll shake out. It's certainly been interesting. As far as Cakewalk making both available - I think that would only be a good thing if they did the following: o Mirrored their web forum dicussions to the newsgroup and vice versa. o Provided a google.com-like archive and means of searching the messages. Doing using google.com itself would probably be the best way of doing it as it would be the least amount of work for them. On the other hand, what if all of a sudden Microsoft bought google.com and wanted to start charging for doing searches of that database? Of course that would never happen would it? .. Hmmm... o Never censored or removed anything that was posted. Otherwise, what we've got now is preferrable. Nick =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= http://www.songbirdofswing.com Nick Busigin Visit Our Indie Jazz CD Construction Project! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Glennbo <> wrote in news:Xns942DB655869F4BrownShoesDontMakeIt@151.164.30.93: > My suggestion would be for us to never get our balls in the > hands of cakewalk again. They have demonstrated that they > can play God, and smash our community on a whim. I'm all > for letting the truth be known, but am 100% against ever > getting on their servers again. I'm with Glennbo on this. The freaky thing here is that the whole episode engenders mistrust. If cakewalk can treat it's core users in such a cavalier fashion then it' not such a big leap to wonder if they're capable of pulling the plug on the whole shebang. Logic Audio here we come. I already did write an article on it. I often write raves about events on the Newsgroups and other places. Just to send to my friends who are net challenged, or haven't the time and/or inclination to find the info for themselves. See below. (Excuse the language, but that's how we speak downunder.) ============================================================== <begin article> CAKEWALK SPLITS ITS USER BASE. Cakewalk have replaced their nntp Newsgroup with a WWW based forum. Which really pissed off the Old Hands. because web page based forums are considered ( by the geekoids ) to be only for lamers and newbies. The Newsgroup wasn't on usenet it was on Cakewalks own server so they can do what they like with it. They announced it yesterday and also that the Newsgroup would be read only from tomorrow onwards. So people can't post to the Newsgroup anymore. We were given 48 hours notice,no consultation. Which is a bit rough, considering many of these guys are pros and they've actually been doing most of the support on the Newsgroup as a labor of love, some of them for years. To make matters worse, the new forum is really naff, with emoticons and avatars etc etc and the moderators are actually moving messages around if they're deemed to be in the wrong thread. Which is sacrilege to the geekoids. blah blah blah. Worse still...( for the Geekoids ) many people like the web forum. The geekoids refuse to use the new forum and have moved over to a dormant usenet Newsgroup called cakewalk.audio. It's been lying dormant for years since it was created way back when, but fell into misuse when cakewalk decided to host the Newsgroups on their own private server. As from yesterday cakewalk.audio is suddenly thriving again with all the disaffected people from the old product.sonar Newsgroup and is now Sonar Geekoid heaven. The web forum is functional and will probably be useful to "ordinary" people who don't know about Newsgroups etc. So...the cakewalk user community is now split. For myself, both forums have their usefulness. But the Newsgroup format is IMHO infinitely better for a variety of reasons. It's easier to search for previous messages and much quicker to navigate through the hundreds of posts, once you have the main body of messages downloaded. So I'll continue to lurk in news:cakewalk.audio and I'll also have a look at http://www.cakewalk.com/forum/ every now and then as well. The one is sort of your old, wise, "been there done that" net geek sort of forum. The other is more your " I just want to make music I don't give a **** about how computers work" type of forum. I do think it was bad management on Cakewalks part to piss off their core users, the real diehards who've been there from the beginning, in such a cavalier fashion. I believe the change was inevitable, because, with Sonar 3 Cakewalk have hit the bigtime. With only one major competitor on the PC platform ( Steinberg ) they are now a major force in the PC Audio/Midi Sequencer market. More so because Sonar 3 Producer is a howling Pisscutter of a program and gives Cubase SX 2 a real run for it's money. And it doesn't have a dongle! <grin> Project 5 is supposed to be pretty good as well but I haven't tried it (yet) The newbies are flooding in and most of 'em wouldn't know how to log on to a Newsgroup to save their lives. Cakewalk have got to cater to these people. It's just a pity they decided to disavow the core geekoid users in the process. Many are asking why they couldn't have kept the old Newsgroup as well as starting up the web forum. <end article> ============================================================== -- cheers GREGi Delete yourself to reply to me via email.
hummm..... I'd play up the aspect of the somewhat obvious efficiency of this type ( nntp ) of group when it comes to the exchange of information. Glennbo had a good way of explaining it with his analogy: "...trading pen and paper for crayons and construction paper" ( something like that ) Possibly compare the technical/efficiency oriented advantages of this type of NG... ....vs the "supposed" ease of access to the web based forum. My Opinion: Sharp minds that are addicted to an organized thought process sometimes prefer a faster read and the ability to archive information easily, for future reference. Everyone obviously has their own preferences for how they like to share experiences. Some might need a picture. Others might be more capable of visualizing the solution as they see the words unfold in a thread, correlating bits from here and there, eventually forming a plan to take their audio / recording experience to a newer level. For me it has nothing to do with loyalty or betrayal. I'm just addicted to the flow of information. I want it and I want it fast and concentrated. Not slow and diluted. Getting on that web based forum is akin to playing my Moms 12 string Japanese acoustic guitar. Why would I do that, when I can play my Alembic/Warmoth Mahogany Strat? Well...only to remember what it's like....have a quick laugh...and then gat back to the real guitar that makes me capable of getting the best out of my musical experience. This group, combined with this efficient and fluid format is like a finely tuned instrument when it is played properly. Yea...sometimes we just beat on it and make noise, and often enough just to annoy the neighbors... but when we really start playing....there is great communication, and an exchange or information that is truly an invaluable to me. Steve Karl "Ted Perlman" <> wrote in message news:f1frb.5799$... > <I just submitted a short story about the situation and events to slashdot> > > I'm thinking maybe I could write a small article for "Computer Music" > magazine about this newsgroup/forum situation (I write for them regularly). > > But I need everybody here to make some suggestions on what appraoch the > article should take. If we put this together correctly, Cakewalk might > actually make BOTH groups available if they're embarrassed enough publicly. > > I am open to suggestions. > > > > -- > > Regards, > > Ted Perlman > > >
In <news:Xns942E722526D35menoncom@195.131.52.135>, Greg Webster said: > They announced it yesterday and also > that the Newsgroup would be read only > from tomorrow onwards. > So people can't post to the Newsgroup > anymore. And on the 15th of next month, it will be gone entirely... erasing for all time a publically-available resource of incalculable value to old and new users alike of most Cakewalk products available or in use at the date of cut-off. > Many are asking why they couldn't have > kept the old Newsgroup as well as > starting up the web forum. Some (like yours truly) are asking why the hell they didn't just put a nice web interface up for access to the ongoing newsgroups, which would have been a completely seamless change and could have been a total, howling success. ((U)) M
In news:3Sfrb.10343$ the killer robot Nick Busigin <> grabbed the controls of the spaceship cakewalk.audio and pressed these buttons... > As far as Cakewalk making both available - I think that would only be a > good thing if they did the following: Did you guys also get back together with your X-Wives and X-Girlfriends? Didn't you learn anything? I could never trust cakewalk to build anything on, if they have the power to turn it off without a moments notice. I like where we are now just fine. It already feels like home to me, and we are un-censored and able to work out our own problems without the aid of a monitor. Even if cake did try to include us, it would not be a free thinking forum. They would be modifying or deleting anything we said that they did not like. I don't even really care if the word gets out on how poorly we have been treated by them. I just want them to stay out of my life, with the exception of the software that they create. End of story. -- Remove YourHeadFromYourAss to reply by email. _______ _____ ___ _____ ____ / ___/ / / __/ |/ / |/ / _ )/ __ \ / (_ / /__/ _// / / _ / /_/ / \___/____/___/_/|_/_/|_/____/\____/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- Glennbo These go to eleven Non-Linear Sound http://www.soundclick.com/glennbo Hear My Music http://www.soundclick.com/jambits
In <news:Xns942DC32302AF9BrownShoesDontMakeIt@151.164.30.94>, Glennbo said: > In news:3Sfrb.10343$ the killer > robot Nick Busigin <> grabbed the controls of the > spaceship cakewalk.audio and pressed these buttons... > >> As far as Cakewalk making both available - I think that would only >> be a good thing if they did the following: > > Did you guys also get back together with your X-Wives and > X-Girlfriends? > > Didn't you learn anything? I could never trust cakewalk to build > anything on, if they have the power to turn it off without a moments > notice. I'm feeling much the same... I've been complaining as I've done not because I expect Cake to be suddenly trustworthy again, but because I think it's important to show (and to put on-record for posterity) just how easy it would have been to keep the trust they'd (sort of) managed to get from some people who supported their products even when those people didn't support the company.... and how senselessly they ****ed that up. ((U)) M
For an article, I'd suggest a structure that focused on what actually made the NG tick. Ron Kuper's remark about his kitchen would be a great place to start. There's something philosophically wrong--I can't put my finger on it--with that perspective. Cakewalk thought that it was their PROVIDING the service of the newsgroup that made it what it was, but they're dead wrong. I can't begin to enumerate the Cakewalk tips and strategies and such that came from non-cakewlk employees. I think the physical attributes of either format are neither here nor there as far as understanding why so many people got so mad. It has to be the Ron Kuper perspective that made Glennbo see red. Do you remember that battle you had over the beta tester agreement a few years back? Dave "Ted Perlman" <> wrote in message news:f1frb.5799$... > <I just submitted a short story about the situation and events to slashdot> > > I'm thinking maybe I could write a small article for "Computer Music" > magazine about this newsgroup/forum situation (I write for them regularly). > > But I need everybody here to make some suggestions on what appraoch the > article should take. If we put this together correctly, Cakewalk might > actually make BOTH groups available if they're embarrassed enough publicly. > > I am open to suggestions. > > > > -- > > Regards, > > Ted Perlman > > >
"Ted Perlman" <> wrote in message news:f1frb.5799$... : I'm thinking maybe I could write a small article for "Computer Music" : magazine about this newsgroup/forum situation (I write for them regularly). : : But I need everybody here to make some suggestions on what appraoch the : article should take. If we put this together correctly, Cakewalk might : actually make BOTH groups available if they're embarrassed enough publicly. Interesting idea. If you do, I'd avoid being real negative, perhaps citing Cakewalk's going to a web forum as a trend (e.g. the Samplitude people recently did it, too) in providing "wider access", but also talking about how there was an established community in place with the old interface, and felt strongly enough about providing those same kinds of capabilities (and a bit of education as a sidebar on NNTP newsgroups versus web forums), that they went and kept the community going even without Cakewalk's support. Perhaps a bit of a rhetorical question might be in order on whether wide access, but "dumbed down" interfaces that are novice-friendly, but not as power user friendly, and/or not as friendly to the power users with extremely limited time who want to scan huge amounts of information quickly, or something? Is that a good thing? We see it elsewhere in society, too, with, for example, CNN Headline News versus newspapers as sources of news, with reality TV as a form of entertainment, with TV and movies versus novels, and so on. Perhaps a question as to whether there is still a place for us "dinosaurs" (i.e. people who want the depth and breadth that the soundbyte world doesn't provide)? I guess the bottom line thought I'm coming to is some kind of thought provoking piece that looks at the general trend, and references how this particular community of users bucked it by going ahead and keeping a community going even after the vendor who had been supporting it "went modern". After all, Cakewalk is just doing what pretty much everyone else already did, but maybe this is where we need to draw the line in the sand??? Personally, I don't much care if it is on Cakewalk's servers or just public servers. There are advantages to both approaches. I do hope, however, Cakewalk people will participate here, and that is really the key thing I'd like to see accomplished on the Cakewalk side, if possible. I'd also like to see other vendors start using the newsgroup format -- it's really a lot more efficient for these kinds of discussions as the interfaces have evolved over many years precisely for this kind of thing, rather than trying to fit a generic interface on a specialized function. My rhetorical question to Cakewalk was whether they'd like to have an HTML interface on SONAR 4. Man, I hope I didn't give them any ideas! ;-)
LOL Yea let's integrate a browser. ROFL Great annology! Steve Karl "Rick Paul" <> wrote in message news:nVgrb.3341$... > "Ted Perlman" <> wrote in message > news:f1frb.5799$... > My rhetorical question to Cakewalk was whether they'd like to have an HTML > interface on SONAR 4. Man, I hope I didn't give them any ideas! ;-) > >
Ted, I would follow the unfolded events and I would center the article on what we are doing. In the end this is a story about people wanting to help each other and exchange information. The spin needs to be positive. If you want it published we need to NOT bag on Cakewalk. Frankly maybe they should be thanked for what they did. Whoa I know hear me out boys and girls. We would have never done this had Cakewalk left things as they were. I have never been MAD at Cakewalk just highly disappointed in the abruptness of the move. Again I would urge the high road, the road that says we took crap and made fertilizer and grew great crops. The story is that this group of people were unwilling to accept what we perceive as an unnecessary and bad change and have triumphed. Cakewalk closes NNTP news groups and starts Web Based forums. Many former newsgroup users refused to accept the change to their community and have found a new home that now will benefit the greater music community better than ever before. The Cakewalk News Groups were know by many inside the music business as the best place to find a helping hand and professional advice from working pros. Many of those helpful people have now moved on to Use net at cakewalk.audio (or what ever if we start our own use net newsgroup) and continued on without missing more than a beat. After some initial rancor and swearing (probably due to the 2 day notice of this change) the (insert groups name) have decided to move on and take their group to the next level. "We decided we can do more good and be a better community now that we have some control of our destiny. What initially appeared to be a catastrophe has turned out to be a blessing in disguise" We are planning on opening our doors to anyone who wishes to come over. Be that the president of Cakewalk or the newest user of Cubase or a seasoned Logic audio Pro. This news group is centered on PC's and obviously starting from the heart and soul of the Cakewalk News group and that is where the greatest expertise is. But people here use every audio product available so don't hesitate to drop by. Need mic recommendations or help in using effects? There are people here that can and more importantly want to help you. "We have not faced every audio issue but between the assembled expertise we have a lot better shot than anyplace any of us knows of. I will stop now as I am not an article writer anyway something along those lines would be the right tenor for anything that we want to publish. The high road boys it works a lot better than ranting and cursing what you can not change. We have a great opportunity to be better than ever before and point the way for our industry and others on the internet. regards, dh
In news: the killer robot "Michael" <> grabbed the controls of the spaceship cakewalk.audio and pressed these buttons... > And on the 15th of next month, it will be gone entirely... erasing for > all time a publically-available resource of incalculable value to old > and new users alike of most Cakewalk products available or in use at > the date of cut-off. Several of us have captured the entire news spool from Product.Sonar, so when the brains at cake erase the drive where all that priceless information lived, it will still be accessable to some degree for providing continuing answers to common , and not so common problems and questions. -- Remove YourHeadFromYourAss to reply by email. _______ _____ ___ _____ ____ / ___/ / / __/ |/ / |/ / _ )/ __ \ / (_ / /__/ _// / / _ / /_/ / \___/____/___/_/|_/_/|_/____/\____/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- Glennbo These go to eleven Non-Linear Sound http://www.soundclick.com/glennbo Hear My Music http://www.soundclick.com/jambits
Glennbo wrote: > > Several of us have captured the entire news spool from Product.Sonar How big is it? Small enough to put on a server somewhere? Dennis
In news:nVgrb.3341$ the killer robot "Rick Paul" <> grabbed the controls of the spaceship cakewalk.audio and pressed these buttons... > Personally, I don't much care if it is on Cakewalk's servers or just > public servers. I do. They've already proven that they can play GOD and vaporize us at a moments notice. I am vehemenly against ever getting in that position again. -- Remove YourHeadFromYourAss to reply by email. _______ _____ ___ _____ ____ / ___/ / / __/ |/ / |/ / _ )/ __ \ / (_ / /__/ _// / / _ / /_/ / \___/____/___/_/|_/_/|_/____/\____/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- Glennbo These go to eleven Non-Linear Sound http://www.soundclick.com/glennbo Hear My Music http://www.soundclick.com/jambits
