Voice Processing question

[Thomas Karlmann]

I am presently looking at keyboards like the Yamaha PSR s950 and the Korg PSA900. (Which other models or brands would you suggest I consider?) Much higher priced 'boards are probably not affordable for me. I would classify myself as a beginner, although I have some music background. My question is this: If I use the keyboard's vocal processor, I am concerned that some of the notes I sing into it might be slightly off-key. What feature(s) should I look for to have the keyboard correct this?

What I know: Yamaha made a keyboard years ago that supposedly did this. One reviewer of the Yamaha s950 stated that the "Quantize" feature, deep inside the menus, would take the 1/16-notes played and "even them up" for you -- so I thought perhaps it might fix up vocal pitch as well.

So, which keyboards can correct a vocal input for pitch? Is this a common feature? What is it called?

Another question: If I use an arranger workstation keyboard to put together a song, then edit it, I can then save it as a MIDI file. Can I then come back to that MIDI file later and fully and completely edit the file, or has some of the information the keyboard uses to allow editing been lost?

Thanks. I would like to get up-to-speed with all this stuff. Thanks again!

 

[happyrat1]

First of all, if you save as a MIDI type 1 file you will lose access to all extended voices since MID only allows the basic 128 GM voices. I believe MIDI type 2 allows access to the XG sound set but I've never seen anyone actually use that file format. XG never really caught on in the MIDI community and every manufacturer went their own way when it came to designing voice banks.

If you wish to preserve all the internal voices and settings then you either save internally to the keyboard's built in sequencer and storage medium in it's own proprietary format or else you save to an external sequencer or DAW which has been configured to recognize the voice banks of your synth and again save in a proprietary format exclusive to that DAW or sequencer.

Secondly, the feature you are looking for for vocals is called "autotune." It won't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear but it can correct when slightly off key.

Quantizing is a simple feature of most sequencers and DAWs that adjusts the timing of notes to fit the time signatures specified in the composition.

Can be useful for stuff like basslines and drum tracks but generally is more of a mechanical sounding pain in the ass than a bonafide feature.

Nobody AFAIK makes a keyboard with built in autotune, but there are effects boxes out there than can act as harmonizers and autotune devices for vocal input.

Some of the better known ones are available from TC-Helicon Corp.

http://www.tc-helicon.com/products/

Other vocal effects like Doctor Who's Daleks can be achieved with a Ring modulator while Kraftwerk style Robot sounds can be made with a vocoder.

Some keyboards do have vocoder and/or ring modulation effects built in and allow external mic inputs thru effects, but like I said, I don't know of any that offer autotune.

Gary

 

[SeaGtGruff]

Another question: If I use an arranger workstation keyboard to put together a song, then edit it, I can then save it as a MIDI file. Can I then come back to that MIDI file later and fully and completely edit the file, or has some of the information the keyboard uses to allow editing been lost?

Well, even if the keyboard won't let you edit the song after you've converted it to a MIDI file and then loaded it back into the keyboard (I'm not sure whether it will or won't), you can certainly edit the MIDI file in a DAW program.

I think Gary/happyrat1 might be confusing the General MIDI Level 1 ("GM" or "GM1") and General MIDI Level 2 ("GM2") specifications with MIDI file formats??? There are three MIDI file formats-- type 0, type 1, and type 2-- but they don't have anything to do with the GM1 and GM2 specs; instead, they differ in the number of MIDI "tracks."

All MIDI files have a "header chunk" and at least one "track chunk." A type 0 file has only one track chunk but it contains the data for all of the MIDI channels. (It's common for people to refer to a MIDI channel as a "track," but they aren't the same things-- a MIDI track can contain data for multiple channels.) A type 1 file has two or more track chunks, typically with the data for each MIDI channel being stored in its own track chunk, hence all of the tracks are intended to be processed/played at the same time as each other. A type 2 file also has two or more track chunks, but each track is intended to be played by itself-- e.g., a type 2 file might contain a set of drum rhythms (one per track), or music loops (one per track), or songs (again, one per track), etc., such that a program could be told to play a given track for a while, then play a different track, then a different one, etc.-- thus, you aren't playing all of the tracks concurrently, but are instead selecting a single track to be played at any given time-- or at least, that's my understanding of how a type 2 file is used. From what I've read, type 2 MIDI files are said to be rarely used, or at least they're used much less frequently than type 0 and type 1 files are.

On the other hand, the GM1 and GM2 specs include (among other things) a list of standard "program numbers" for different instrument sounds, which people commonly refer to as "patches," although Yamaha calls them "voices" and Casio calls them "tones." The GM1 specs list 128 instrument sounds, each having a specific program number, with the intention that if a MIDI file uses only the GM1 instrument sounds then it can be played by any keyboard or DAW that includes the GM1 sound set-- which doesn't mean it will sound the same on all keyboards, since the GM1 specs don't actually stipulate how the programs are supposed to sound (e.g., the "Grand Piano" program might sound quite a bit different from one keyboard to the next). The GM2 specs list 256 different instrument sounds, with each one having specific Program Change and Bank Select numbers. A MIDI-capable keyboard doesn't have to include the GM1 or GM2 instrument sounds, but if the manufacturer identifies the keyboard as being GM1- and/or GM2-compatible then it must include the GM1 and/or GM2 sounds.

Anyway, when you record a song on a Yamaha keyboard the Bank Select (BS) and Program Change (PC) numbers will be saved so the keyboard will know which voice(s) to use when playing the song, and if you convert the song to a MIDI file then the BS and PC numbers will be written to the file. They can be for any voice that the keyboard is capable of playing, regardless of whether it's a GM1, GM2, XG, GS, or other type of voice. (XG is Yamaha's extension of the GM specs, whereas GS is Roland's extension.) If you want to play the MIDI file back on a keyboard other than the one it was created for, you might need to "revoice" the channels (change the BS and PC numbers used by the channels) to get the best sounds for the keyboard, otherwise if the keyboard doesn't have a voice for the specified BS/PC numbers it will pick some other voice instead and the song might not sound "right."

Also, the different manufacturers have their own System Exclusive (SysEx) messages, so a Yamaha keyboard might not recognize Roland's SysEx commands, and vice versa, therefore any SysEx commands in the file might need to be converted to an equivalent message that the keyboard can understand.

Anyway, you will not lose any of your keyboard's non-GM voices when you convert the song to a MIDI file.

Edit: Corrected "RS" to "GS."

 

[happyrat1]

Thanks for better articulating what I tried to explain Mike.

But I do wish to point out that once a patch change is saved in a GM type file, it's a royal pain in the ass to edit or remove it later on.

Furthermore, anyone else playing that file on different hardware or software will be stuck with the basic 128 GM patches.

For all practical purposes, if you are creating a GM MID file for distribution, you will be limited to the basic 128 GM voices.

Gary

 

[Thomas Karlmann]

So, which keyboards can correct a vocal input for pitch? Is this a common feature? What is it called?

Thanks. I would like to get up-to-speed with all this stuff. Thanks again!

Everyone has largely ignored my voice pitch correction question! Please reply to that -- I will endeavor to only include one topic per thread in the future!!!

I have just learned that the "TC-Helicon VoiceTone Harmony-G XT Vocal Effects Processor" can do voice pitch correction WITH updated firmware. But can either the PSR950 or the PA900 do that?

 

[happyrat1]

I specifically addressed the autotune topic in great detail in my first post.

What else do you need to know about it?

Gary

 

[happyrat1]

Like I said previously. I know of absolutely NO keyboards that have built in autotune/pitch correction/harmonizing whatever the hell a specific manufacturer chooses to call it and Yamaha is no exception. NONE of their keyboards include autotune.

Gary

 

[Thomas Karlmann]

Secondly, the feature you are looking for for vocals is called "autotune." It won't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear but it can correct when slightly off key.

Quantizing is a simple feature of most sequencers and DAWs that adjusts the timing of notes to fit the time signatures specified in the composition.

Can be useful for stuff like basslines and drum tracks but generally is more of a mechanical sounding pain in the ass than a bonafide feature.

Nobody AFAIK makes a keyboard with built in autotune, but there are effects boxes out there than can act as harmonizers and autotune devices for vocal input.

Some of the better known ones are available from TC-Helicon Corp.

http://www.tc-helicon.com/products/

Other vocal effects like Doctor Who's Daleks can be achieved with a Ring modulator while Kraftwerk style Robot sounds can be made with a vocoder.

Some keyboards do have vocoder and/or ring modulation effects built in and allow external mic inputs thru effects, but like I said, I don't know of any that offer autotune.

Gary

Like I said previously. I know of absolutely NO keyboards that have built in autotune/pitch correction/harmonizing whatever the hell a specific manufacturer chooses to call it and Yamaha is no exception. NONE of their keyboards include autotune.

Gary

I've just learned that the Korg PA-900 can do autotune. It displays the "TC Helicon" logo right on the front panel. I called Sweetwater and they confirmed that the vocal features include vocal pitch correction. They added that the Pa3X does add to this feature. Yamaha HAD a keyboard in the past that had this feature -- but that was ~10 years ago, and I tossed out all the brochures I had on it. I am also (now) aware of the small foot-switch type devices that purport to do this. The demos of these devices I've seen on YT are not well done. My apologies -- if this is primarily a Yamaha-board.

 

[SeaGtGruff]

My apologies -- if this is primarily a Yamaha-board.

It isn't, so there's no need to apologize for anything. I'm glad you were able to find a keyboard that does what you want.

Edit: I was just looking at Korg's website and reading about the Pa800 and Pa900. While they both have a built-in Voice Processor from TC Helicon, neither one specifically says it can do auto-tuning-- harmonizing, yes, and effects like reverb and delay, plus a compressor and EQ, but nothing about the ability to auto-tune or pitch-correct a voice. So I hope it can do what you're expecting. The owner's manual doesn't say it can. To be exact, it does mention pitch-correcting the harmonized voices, but not pitch-correcting your voice. On the other hand, the info on the Pa3X says "even better pitch correction."

 

[CowboyNQ]

Hey Thomas,

My strong advice would be to check out the Korg 'board in person (if you can) before purchasing. I don't reckon the on-board TC Helicon can do auto tune, despite what you were told. I hope I'm wrong, but on the off chance I'm not, you might invest in an "outboard" vocal harmonizer if this is important to you in your gigs?

Cheers!

 

[Ryan@Yamaha]

Hi Thomas,
This is Ryan from Yamaha.
The PSRS950 lets you directly connect a microphone and use a
variety of sophisticated processing tools specifically designed for
vocals. These include an amazing Vocal Harmony function, which
automatically produces backup vocal harmonies for lead vocals that
you sing into a microphone. You can even change the gender of the
harmony voices — for example, letting you add female backup to your
own male voice (or vice versa) — or use the Vocal Doubler to make
your single voice sound like many. In the Vocal Harmony feature there
is also a "Pitch Correct" setting. You can set the "Pitch Correct" to
"Hard" then turn the volume down for the Harmony Parts.
With these settings you will get close to what you are looking for
with an Auto Tune. If you or anyone else have any questions related to Yamaha
products please contact our support department by going to:
http://4wrd.it/PACSUPPORT
Best Regards,
Ryan

 

[happyrat1]

Ryan, I'm happy you could contribute a solid piece of information to this discussion and clear up the autotune issue on this matter.

At the risk of hijacking the thread though I have an unrelated question for you.

Why does Yamaha hate Linux so much that rather than using industry standard class compliant USB MIDI interfaces it insists on using proprietary bloated windows and mac only drivers instead?

It is for this reason alone that I have avoided Yamaha keyboards like the plague for the past 20 years and am unlikely to ever own one in the future.

Seriously I've read your 8 page PSR driver installation guide once or twice and I am appalled at how badly written those drivers must be if they are that difficult to install on a supported platform, never mind that I am simply SOL if I am running a Linux studio.

So what's up with that?

Gary

 

[CowboyNQ]

Hey Ryan,

Well done on having a crack at answering this tricky question and helping Thomas. Reflects very well on you and Yamaha!

Cheers,

Paul

 

[SeaGtGruff]

Regarding your second question, I asked a PSR-S950 owner about editing a song you've saved as a MIDI file and he confirmed that yes, you can load it back into the keyboard later and edit it some more.

 

[Ryan@Yamaha]

Ryan, I'm happy you could contribute a solid piece of information to this discussion and clear up the autotune issue on this matter.

At the risk of hijacking the thread though I have an unrelated question for you.

Why does Yamaha hate Linux so much that rather than using industry standard class compliant USB MIDI interfaces it insists on using proprietary bloated windows and mac only drivers instead?

It is for this reason alone that I have avoided Yamaha keyboards like the plague for the past 20 years and am unlikely to ever own one in the future.

Seriously I've read your 8 page PSR driver installation guide once or twice and I am appalled at how badly written those drivers must be if they are that difficult to install on a supported platform, never mind that I am simply SOL if I am running a Linux studio.

So what's up with that?

Gary

Hi Gary! I'll be more than happy to try and answer your question. First off, according to our latest analysis Linux usage makes up about 1.74% of the market share. Now that is a steep increase compared to a few years ago. Where Windows and OSX operating systems make up the rest. Second, class compliant drivers offer very basic MIDI port connectivity. For example, the driver for the USB connection on the Motif XF gives you the ability to take advantage of a MULTI PORT interface. PORT 1(referred to the "main" port) The XF REMOTE Layer uses PORT 2, the external MIDI jacks use PORT 3, and PORT 4 is reserved to the external editor. With a class compliant driver you can't take advantage of this feature. And last, if you can install a printer driver you can install one of our drivers. I'm sure the 8 page PSR driver installation guide goes through separate instructions for multiple operating systems. The installation is as simple as clicking on SETUP.EXE in the driver download. Plus if you get stuck on the installation the Yamaha Support team will be more than happy to lend a hand! And we do not hate Linux or Linux users. The more market share Linux receives will equal to more compatibility between our products. I hope I was able to clear some things up for you. And we hope to see you as a Yamaha customer in the near future!
Best Regards,
Ryan

 

[happyrat1]

Thanks for the honest reply Ryan.

The way I see it though, MIDI itself is a 40 year old standard which has managed to hold up quite well to the test of time. Having proprietary drivers ties you to a hardware/software platform which in all likelihood will no longer exist nor be supported ten years down the road. I anticipate that the USB MIDI class compliant standard will still be supported another 40 years from now.

As for the PSR driver guide, if I recall correctly, about 2 or 3 of the 8 pages were devoted to how to properly remove old drivers before installing upgrades over them as well as a fair sized section on troubleshooting failed installations. That's a red flag to me.

As for the 1.74% market share, that must be in fact referring to the Linux Musicians' Market specifically, as in general desktop usage these days Linux has surpassed the 5% mark overall and by excluding that percentage you alienate the beginners who might have considered a low end PSR and would instead end up buying a Casio or other more compliant piece of hardware.

Anyway, best of luck in your future endeavours but I will continue to take a pass on Yamaha gear for my studio needs in the foreseeable future.

Regards,
Gary

PS. I've attached a copy of the driver installation guide so you can read it yourself.

 

[SeaGtGruff]

To be fair, only one page is about uninstalling. It's less than a full page, and would have taken less space if (1) Yamaha hadn't included two sets of instructions for Vista versus other versions of Windows; (2) they hadn't used such a nice, big, easy-to-read font for the boldfaced instructions; and (3) they hadn't used as much spacing between the various steps. The steps themselves are very simple, and some of the steps could have been stated with a lot more brevity-- e.g., "Go to Add/Remove Programs" instead of describing how to get there. But having worked in software support myself and having written installation instructions, I can say from experience that no matter how explicitly step-by-step you try to be, you're still going to get calls from people asking for help because they didn't bother to read the instructions. I think it can actually become a self-defeating effort-- you get calls asking for help, so based on the kinds of questions you get you try to make the written instructions excruciatingly clear, spelling out each and every step no matter how obvious you may think they might be; but this seems to encourage people to stop thinking for themselves, thereby spurring you to make the instructions even more explicit; and then most people don't even bother to read the instructions, anyway! It's a thankless and frustrating task.

But I, too, would love to see Yamaha release a USB-MIDI driver for Unix, Linux, and Android-- in my case, Android is the only one I really care about, so I can use my Yamaha keyboards with my Android tablet in addition to my iPad and my Windows tablet.

 

[happyrat1]

Actually you're not going to see any decent MIDI applications written for Android any time soon. The current specs of Android OS and the hardware are simply not powerful enough to handle real time audio processing.

Like it or not, if you plan to use a MIDI keyboard with a tablet the iPad and iPhone are the only game in town for now and for the foreseeable future.

Gary

PS. As for the PSR installation and unistallation instructions, nowadays when people plug in a USB device they simply expect it to work. No muss no fuss. That's what plug n' play is all about.

 

[Thomas Karlmann]

Uh-oh, my thread is hijacked! LOL.
Thanks to all of you who responded, and thanks to Ryan who (for me) has allowed the PSRS950 back into my consideration for voice pitch correction or 'autotune'.

Ryan: Can I make myself sound like Roberta Flack in "Killing me Softly..." with that Gender Change feature? Or, will I sound more like Alvin the Chipmunk?

Now Korg is on the hotplate with the PA900 as I'm not willing to invest all that money on one sales-person's statements. What one replier here discovered, did mirror what I was told -- echoing that the Pa3x does pitch correction 'better'.

Much of this may be moot, as others have pointed out and I discovered, as I can just get one of many TC Helicon foot-switch devices that seem to perform this function.

 

[happyrat1]

Sorry for hijacking the thread Thomas. It's just that I have a bone to pick with manufacturers who use non standard interfaces and tend to leave linux users and legacy owners out in the cold.

At any rate I've raised a few serious points should you decide to go with a Yamaha purchase, not the least of which is asking yourself if you will still be able to find drivers and apps for it should you consider keeping it for a decade or more.

I can say from experience that Korg machines tend to use class compliant interfaces and you can double check that in the specs of whatever model you decide to investigate.

Unless you are in the habit of dumping your keyboards every ten years for the latest greatest models, it's definitely worth keeping in mind.

And if you simply opt for a $150 Mic Mechanic from TC Helicon then this entire discussion becomes moot anyway.

Gary