What kind of "keyboard" am I looking for?

[Neutron]

So I'm looking to buy my first piano, and I am having some serious trouble differentiating between different kind of keyboards, and I'd really like some help to understand this better.
Now, I am not looking to spend more than about 700$ and no less than 300$. I don't want a really good or professional keyboard, but I also don't want a cheap one that I'll have to replace soon after. I'm serious about learning to play the piano, so naturally I'd like a keyboard with audio output... so I guess a MIDI keyboard is off the list.
Besides learning to play, my main reason for buying this keyboard and keeping to this budget is to be able to connect it with my computer and use the money elsewhere. I am planning to start learning to compose soundtracks and movie-like scores with EastWest QL sound libraries. I already have Cubase 5 and EW QL Gold and a fairly good computer.
So for now I know that I am probably looking for a keyboard with these features:

• 88 weighted keys
• Not workstation, not MIDI keyboard
• Audio output
• Headphone jack stick and volume control
• MIDI or USB

Am I looking for an arranger keyboard, or am I better off with a digital piano? Or perhaps a synthesizer? All can be used for being plugged into the computer and composing, right?
I read somewhere that a "digital keyboard" does not have weighted keys. But I also read that an arranger keyboard can have that, so is an arranger keyboard not a digital keyboard? What are the differences?
If possible, could anyone here rule out the differences and similarities between these terms:

• MIDI controllers
• Digital pianos
• Digital keyboards
• Arranger keyboards
• Synthesizers
• Keyboard as a general term

Etc.: MIDI: no audio output, digital piano: audio output... and can a digital keyboard be a MIDI controller and so forth.

I apologize if these are basic questions, but I have found no basic explanations so far.
Any help in clearing this up is appreciated, just please keep in mind to make your reply as simple as possible. I probably won't get anything out of your reply if you use too many advanced terms, as I'm fairly new into the world of keyboards/pianos (have played the guitar for a little while now).

 

[Neutron]

Ok so I guess for this budget I can only get a stage piano if I want 88 keys. Do you think this would fit my needs?

 

[SeaGtGruff]

I wonder if a Yamaha DGX-660 might suffice for you? If it's a little over your maximum, one of the earlier models (DGX-650 or DGX-640, etc.) might be a bit cheaper.

 

[Rayblewit]

Now, I am not looking to spend more than about 700$ and no less than 300$. I don't want a really good or professional keyboard, but I also don't want a cheap one that I'll have to replace soon after.

Hi
Since you are learning and you have a budget in mind, I think a second hand unit would be worth considering.
You can probably save a few hundred bucks by seeking out a pre-loved "88 weighted" of which is 2 or 3 years old. What might have cost $1000 in 2013 you could probably buy for $600 now. (for example)
Then when you are familiar with all of the features after a couple of years, you may be happy with it or ready to trade up.
As for now if you buy new, you wil probably have to exceed your budget to get something reasonably good to accommodate your computer and cubebade etc..

Checkout SeaGt's suggestions and try them out in the music stores to compare. Ask to see the trade in models as well and compare.

Don't be hasty in buying. Just collate ideas and also try ebay and gumtree.

Personally, I cannot suggest specific models. I am only familiar with 61 work stations.

Good Luck. Make it a pleasant shopping experience and take you time.

 

[Neutron]

Thank you so much for your replies, it is much appreciated. I took a look on the DGX-650, which seems like a nice model. I would be happy with getting a Yamaha, and I might be willing to go a little over maximum and instead only buy 1 or 2 more EW libraries to work with. However, I am wondering, as I see that the model is an arranger keyboard, how this one compares to a digital piano? For example, what features differentiates it from the digital piano, and are they good features to have for composing soundtracks/movie/game-like scores or just "nice features" to have? As far as I understand, much of the price on an arranger keyboard lies in its features (or am I wrong?), and say that I wouldn't need these features, wouldn't I be better of using the same money on a digital piano whose sound is then probably of a better quality?

 

[Neutron]

Hi
Since you are learning and you have a budget in mind, I think a second hand unit would be worth considering.
You can probably save a few hundred bucks by seeking out a pre-loved "88 weighted" of which is 2 or 3 years old. What might have cost $1000 in 2013 you could probably buy for $600 now. (for example)
Then when you are familiar with all of the features after a couple of years, you may be happy with it or ready to trade up.
As for now if you buy new, you wil probably have to exceed your budget to get something reasonably good to accommodate your computer and cubebade etc..

Checkout SeaGt's suggestions and try them out in the music stores to compare. Ask to see the trade in models as well and compare.

Don't be hasty in buying. Just collate ideas and also try ebay and gumtree.

Personally, I cannot suggest specific models. I am only familiar with 61 work stations.

Good Luck. Make it a pleasant shopping experience and take you time.

I will definitely take your advice into consideration. However, is it not also a bit risky since I am not competent enough to know whether the piano/keyboard has taken any specific damage?

 

[Rayblewit]

When I bought my 2nd hand KB, from a reputable store, they gave me a 12 month warranty.

Buying from a store . . Ask for some kind of guarantee. They may offer it to you, If they want the sale and want to clear out old stock . . you never know without asking. Also superseded models can often be discounted to make floor space for new models.
Also when buying second hand, I would suggest try out everything before you buy it. Play every Key black and white under different programs to see if they all work. Check the volume knob for static. Check all the knobs and slides. Check the video screen make sure it is not scratched. Is it readable? Turn up the volume an listen for static and look at the speakers. . . can you see dust bouncing around?
Try the Pitch Bend toggle and the Category Select wheel . . Are they smooth not sticking? Check out the USB ports and output jacks . . happy? Does it come with a manual?
I think there maybe link here somewhere on this forum such as a guide to buying second hand? If there is, someone here will post it here I am sure.
Anyway, you are right in not knowing the history of a used item. Buying privately can get you a bargain, But "Buyer Beware."

When you find one you like, (new or second hand) punch in the model number on YouTube and you will most likely see demos showing all of the features.
Cheers

 

[SeaGtGruff]

I should state up front that I have no experience playing either a DGX-6xx keyboard or a digital piano. But as I understand it, a digital piano will generally have better-quality sound samples and a better-quality keybed than an arranger workstation or portable keyboard, but will also have fewer voices (instrument sounds) to choose from. Yamaha actually considers the DGX-6xx models to be digital pianos-- see http://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical-instruments/keyboards/digitalpianos/. However, I would say that they're more of a cross between a digital piano and a portable keyboard, because while their piano sound samples aren't as good as those of more expensive digital pianos, they're better than those of less expensive portable keyboards. The DGX series also have a lot more voices than what you'll find on most digital pianos. You should see if you can find one in a local store that you can try out in person to see if you'd be happy with the feel and response of the keybed, as well as the quality of the voices. Of course, if you're planning to use the keyboard with virtual instruments, then the quality and quantity of the built-in voices is less important than the feel and response of the keybed.

 

[happyrat1]

Everyone else seems to have pretty well covered the key points.

In addition to the Yamaha DGX instruments I'd also like to suggest the Casio Privia PX-360 or PX-350 models or possibly a used Privia PX-5S as solid choices for your needs.

Though they're all listed as stage pianos they offer the capabilities of a decent workstation as well.

One caveat for the PX-5S though. Being a true stage piano it lacks onboard speakers so you'd have to invest in a set of monitors as well.

Gary

 

[Neutron]

....

I see. As I see myself spending most of the time with the keyboard connected to the computer in order to play around with the EastWest libraries and Cubase (except for learning to play properly), don't you think, then, that I should go with a digital piano? And then, if it sharpens my taste for more and after a few years I want to go truly serious, I will be better off spending real money on a more advanced arranger keyboard/synthesizer/workstation?
I have taken a look on a few models that is more within what I initially thought of spending. What do you think of, for instance, the Yamaha P-45? As far as I can see, it fits the features that I have so far listed above, yet I have no idea as to the sound quality or whether I am setting the budget a little too low?

...

Thank you much for your advice, I'll definitely keep that in mind when trying out a new (or used) keyboard.

...

Thank you for your suggestion, however I am not really looking to spend extra money on external speakers.

 

[Neutron]

I mean, I know it's a stage piano, but it does have built-in speaker, does it not? Under specs, it states "2 x 6 W speakers", however I don't really see them on the picture. Do stage pianos generally not have built-in speakers?

 

[happyrat1]

Whom are you addressing regarding which model?

 

[happyrat1]

Speaking in general terms.

The PX-350 and the PX-360 DO have speakers built in.

The PX-5S Does NOT!

As for your needs, you're going to have to pony up at least $500 used or $800 new to get the features you desire.

What you are looking for is a stage piano with some workstation features to accomplish what you wish to do.

Arrangers do NOT have weighted hammer action piano style keys.

Digital Keyboard/Synthesizer are meaningless marketing terms these days used to describe everything from the cheapest Casios to a $5000 Kronos.

MIDI is NOT used to transmit sound. It is used to transmit digital note data in a sequenced MIDI song.

Having both MIDI and USB ports is considered a plus these days on most good quality keyboards and they can usually be used independently and/or interchangeably.

Don't sell the Casios short. They are delivering state of the art professional gear these days.

The PX-360 is the replacement model for the PX-350. Because the PX-350 is discontinued you can pick one up as clearance stock or used for a substantial discount.

Gary

 

[happyrat1]

Samash Music has the PX-350 as a closeout for $699 USD right now.

http://www.samash.com/casio-privia-px-350-digital-piano-cpx350bkx

Walmart USA also has it for $699 USD in stock.

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Casio-PX-350-88-Key-Privia-Digital-Stage-Piano/29002390

They won't be sticking around much longer at that price.

And these units include the full Casio 3 year warranty and include both MIDI and USB ports as well as dedicated audio line out ports.

General consensus around most musicians is that Casio is generally better bang for the buck than similarly priced Yamaha models.

Also, Yamaha does not play well with Linux while Casios are USB MIDI Class Compliant so they will run with almost any operating system without having to install drivers.

My experiences in the past with Yamaha Drivers has been horrendous.


Gary

 

[Fred Coulter]

Yamaha actually considers the DGX-6xx models to be digital pianos-- see http://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical-instruments/keyboards/digitalpianos/. However, I would say that they're more of a cross between a digital piano and a portable keyboard, because while their piano sound samples aren't as good as those of more expensive digital pianos, they're better than those of less expensive portable keyboards. The DGX series also have a lot more voices than what you'll find on most digital pianos.

I'm an owner of a DGX-650, and I primarily use it as a piano. As to how seriously Yamaha takes the piano part of the DGX series, here are a couple points. First, as has been mentioned before, Yamaha lists it in the Piano section of their web site, not in the arranger keyboard section. I think the G stands for Grand, as in Digital Grand. There's a dedicated piano button. Lastly, there's an option for three pedals. (If you can't attach all three pedals to the keyboard, then the manufacturer isn't taking it seriously as a piano.)

On the other hand, calling it a cross between a digital piano and a portable keyboard is a bit much. I like the DGX a lot, but it's hardly portable. I'd call it more of a digital piano with added arranger features. It's not a full blown arranger, but an interesting cross.

Looking at the specs for the DGX-660, it's barely an improvement over the 650, which itself isn't all that much better than the 640. If the store will sell you a new 650 (or 640) for less than the 660, you'll probably be very satisfied.

 

[Fred Coulter]

USD prices on Amazon for the DGX series keyboards.

DGX-660 - $799.99 with stand. You'll probably want the three pedal unit for $74.99
DGX-650 - $725.00 with stand. You'll probably want the three pedal unit for $74.99
DGX-640 - $1,013.13. DO NOT BUY THIS FROM AMAZON, IT COSTS TOO MUCH

The DGX keyboards include internal speakers. You may wish to get a bench and headphones. There are bundles available with more accessories.

On a different note, a Kronos is not a $5,000 keyboard in the United States. The top of the line Kronos from Sweetwater is $3,699.99. However, unlike the DGX series keyboards, it doesn't include internal speakers.

 

[Neutron]

Thank you so much for all your support so far. Really, arranger keyboards do not have weighted keys? I just thought I saw a few examples of some... or is there any difference between "weighted keys" and "weighted hammer action keys"?
I have taken a look on the PX-350, which in my country is available for 627$ right now (29% off), and it seems like a really nice model (except I can't get it in black for that same price ;-)). I especially like that it both have MIDI and USB connectivity, and it seems there has been focus on getting the piano-like feeling with the 3-sensors stuff (which I have no clue about, but it sounds fancy). It does have a headphone jack stick, right? I would have posted a link where the specs state that it does (in order to know if it was the right model), however this forum is a bit too paranoid for that.
The price is also agreeable. But why do you say I must at least spend 800$ on a new in order to get these features? Doesn't Yamaha's P-45, which costs only 472$, qualify?

I have taken a look on the Yamaha DGX-650 also (can't seem to find the 640 in my country), which I also really like. I am able to get it for 675$ (without stand, which is fine for me) as a demo deal, which is pretty attractive. I am already the owner of some nice gaming headphones, which I think will suffice, and a bench is not a problem for now. However, the 650 seems to have no MIDI, and I wonder whether I will really need any nice extra features when I am mostly planning to use virtual instruments on my computer? Do you think the higher price is mostly due to better sound quality or these extra features? For instance, what would make it better than the P-45, do you think?

 

[happyrat1]

The P45 has only ten instrument voices and 64 note polyphony.

If you plan to compose soundtracks and score movies that ain't gonna cut it.

It also has no MIDI ports and no audio line outs except for the headphone jack.

Useless if you are trying to record to a computer soundcard or sound interface.

Also pretty useless as a controller as it has no zones to support splits and layers and no MIDI ports to control vintage or modern rack hardware.

The PX-350 HAS audio line outs, MIDI and USB ports, 128 note polyphony, 250 instrument voices and can be used as a 4 zone controller for VST's, splits and layers.

Compared to the PX-350 the P45 is literally a toy piano.

The DGX looks a little better on paper, but still lacks proper MIDI ports which are necessary for adding expansions later on such as a rack module. It also lacks a proper audio line out which requires you to record from the headphone jack which is enough to make any audio engineer cringe at the level and impedance mismatch.

Also Yamaha doesn't seem to publish any specs as to its fitness for use as a controller (ie. number of assignable zones for VSTs)

It also weighs in twice as heavy as the Casio.

And lastly, and I cannot stress this enough, YAMAHA WRITES TERRIBLE DRIVERS FOR THEIR HARDWARE!!!

If it at least had proper MIDI ports you could work around the terrible drivers using a class compliant USB MIDI Interface.

My advice to you is to go with the PX-350. It is the closest you will find to a professional quality instrument in that price range. Who cares what color it is? Music has no color

Gary

 

[happyrat1]

And the only reason the PX-350 is within your budget is because it is being discontinued in favor of the PX-360.

Originally it sold for around $800-$900.

And just about every keyboard EVER made has a headphone jack at the very least for output, including the PX-350.

Gary

 

[Fred Coulter]

I am able to get it for 675$ (without stand, which is fine for me) as a demo deal, which is pretty attractive.

The stand for the DGX-650 is a heavy wooden, non-collapsible item. This adds to the "non-portable" nature of the instrument. If you're thinking about taking it on the road, you won't be missing anything by not getting the stand. On the other hand, if it's going to sit in one place (like mine does), then the stand works well.

For me, the DGX-650 is the sit and play electronic instrument. Press the power button, and a few seconds later I've got sound. If I want to do something fancy, using other sound modules and multiple keyboards, using the computer, etc., I've got other options. But they take a while to be playable. Boot time is a reality. Sometimes I just want to play. (Due to a death in the family, I may be getting an upright piano, too. So I'll have several acoustic sit down and play instruments.)

It's still better than my old setup, which included an external amplifier and mixer to connect everything together. My wife's dog thought the mixer was a great place to sit and look out the window. Whenever I wanted to play, I had to figure out which solo buttons the dog had pressed, reset all the levels, etc.