a synth for live gigs

[Sixtease]

Hello everybody. I'm glad I found this place and I dare ask your advice right away.

I am a keyboard newbie. Primarily guitarist but I hit the keys when the song calls for it. I own a Casio XW-P1 and I must admit I have hardly ever found a sound there that I really wanted. I want to replace it but this time I want to buy the right thing.

What I need:
1) cool sounds out of the box, including
- leads like e.g. in intro of Caught in a Web by Dream Theater;
- warm pads and strings like the PadSynth method in ZynAddSubFX can do if anybody knows that;
- big bell sounds like church bells;
- a generally broad palette of (adjustable) sounds;

2) decent sound versatility
- zone splitting;
- sound layering;
- actual waveform parametrization would be nice;
- real-time controls over parameters;

3) controls
- 5+ octaves;
- MIDI;

The device should be live-performance oriented. This means that low weight, durability and battery operation are a plus whereas integrated speakers, hammer mechanics, workstation features etc. less so.

Thank you in advance for your help.

 

[Fred Coulter]

I'm assuming that you're in a full band? (With drummer, bass player, etc.?) If so, my first bit of advice is to avoid arranger keyboards. Those are designed for one man bands or for songwriters at home creating reasonable demos. (OK, I've seen them used for duos, too.)

Before going any further, you'll need to let us know what your budget is. The recommendations will be very different if you're dealing with a $500 budget or a $5,000 budget.

Also, what kind of keyboardist are you? What is the role of the keyboard? The more upfront the keyboard will be, the more polyphony it probably needs. The less upfront the keyboard it, the less polyphony. If you're only going to be adding some pads, you may need less than if you're grabbing chords with your left hand while ripping through a nasty lead in your right.

Have you played a lot of piano, or is your background more electronic keyboards and organs? If you're a pianist, you may be unhappy with an unweighted keyboard. On the other hand, if your background is more with synths and other lighter keyboards, the heavier keyboards may hurt your fingers and limit how long you can play.

Finally, if you're doing more than one thing at a time on the keyboards, you'll probably want to be able to split the keyboard. (No, that doesn't mean physically break it in two, although that might be useful for some of the heavier keyboards out there. It means play completely different sounds on the left and right side of the keyboard.)

Sorry that I can't give you an answer, but this information will help limit your options. Remember that if there was a perfect keyboard, then the keyboard section of your local music store would be much smaller.

 

[Sixtease]

Hello and thank you for the reply. Yes, we are a full band with a bassist and drummer. I have virtually no background in keyboard and I'm just using my general knowledge of music to play chords, arpeggios and simple solo lines. I don't need a lot of polyphony but I do need some. Holding a chord in the left hand and playing a solo with the right one is a common thing for me. I don't care about weighted keys, I'm perfectly fine softness but it's not a huge factor. So yes, I need splitting and I need at least four zones.

I haven's specified a budget because I would like recommendations of things that satisfy what I need, period. Price will come up when comparing options. But I would be ready to pay 1000 (for used or new) with no second thoughts.

 

[Fred Coulter]

I went to the Sweetwater site, and looked at the 61 key synths under $1,000. Of the ones listed, I liked Roland JUNO-DS61 the best. It's selling there for $699.

I'm sure that other people here will give you other options. Once everyone's given you their opinion, make a trip to your local store and try them out.

If you buy it from Sweetwater, it appears to qualify for 24 month interest free financing.

 

[Sixtease]

After some research, I'm now considering either a KingKorg or a used Kurzweil K2661. Apart of the obvious facts that KingKorg is new and lighter and K2661 is more high-end, what do you think of these two options?

 

[Fred Coulter]

Two very different synths. One of them, the Korg, is going back to the analog days. The other one, the Kurzweil, is playing back samples taken of other instruments. The problem with the Kurzweil is that you won't be able to sit down at a store and compare the two synths.

My father always had a Kurzweil as the center piece of his studio. He was a classical composer, so I'm not sure how much that applies to you. He used it to simulate orchestras for his compositions and for that purpose it was great. For you? Hard to say.

I recommend trying them both out before buying either one. The most important is that neither of them can make every sound under the sun. Listen to the sounds they do make, and decide if it fits into what your band (or your future endeavors) is doing.

One thing you've probably noticed is that as your budget goes up, your options widen drastically.

In terms of cash flow, the one advantage the Korg has is that it's easier to finance a new instrument. But if you've got the cash, so much the better.

 

[happyrat1]

I see only one problem with the Kurzweil. It's a 15 year old machine which means that it's due to start breaking down any day now.

Depending on the history of the machine whether it sat in a studio under a dustcover for the past 15 years or if it was chucked into a truck by roadies on a daily basis makes a big difference, but regardless, after 15 years a keyboard starts to show its age.

The Kurzweil is a traditional ROMpler workstation. I believe it also incorporates an early form of VAST synthesis which is extremely powerful. A good all around workstation for studio and live use.

On the other hand, Kurzweils are a bitch to program and be prepared to spend years wading thru the manuals trying to perfect your understanding of the beast.

The King Korg, however, is essentially an upgrade to your existing XW-P1. It's a virtual analog synth with oodles of knobs and buttons with a few basic bread and butter ROMpler voices thrown in for good measure.

Given your budget, I'd suggest a few mid priced workstation models that won't break the bank but by no means do they come cheap.

Roland FA-08 or FA-06 depending if you can live with 5 octaves.

Kurzweil PC3LE6 or PC3LE7.

Korg Krome 88 or 61

or definitely worth a gander if you want to save about $800 take a look at the Casio Privia PX-5S or the Privia PX-560M

These are all in my mind worthwhile workstations that would serve you well in the studio and on stage.

Gary

 

[CowboyNQ]

I think all of Gary's suggestions would work fine with your requirements, it will come down to price point and personal preference.

If you can have a crack at any of them in a shop, do so. It will help you get a feel for the keybeds and the interface, which will be important particularly given you want real-time sound modification.

I'd stay away from the KingKorg. I own one and it's really fantastic at emulating analogue synthesisers, but I would never take it on stage as my only keyboard, it's just not versatile enough. If you want to make more traditional keyboard sounds like piano, organ, EP, etc. you'll find it lacking.

Good luck.

 

[Fred Coulter]

While the financing deal from Sweetwater is nice, if you spend a lot of time comparing keyboards at a physical store, please buy from them. Even if it's a few bucks more, you've used their time and floor space, so let them make a little money off of you.

 

[happyrat1]

While I can understand wanting to support small businesses the sad truth of the matter is that many brick and mortar stores are rapidly becoming dinosaurs.

This is even more true in Canada where electronics and music shops are often charging as much as 50% to 100% premium over online prices for the exact same gear.

The smarter ones are getting online themselves for the sake of expanding their volume and becoming more competitive in the digital age.

Fact is, if I want to audition a keyboard in person I sometimes have to make a 25 to 40 Km trip to even find a shop that even stocks keyboards, much less the particular models in which I am interested.

Supporting local business is all well and good when it comes to consumables like food and clothing and home improvement supplies, but on a thousand dollar plus item like a keyboard if I can save anywhere from 20% to 50% of the cost I will definitely end up going the online ordering route.

Businesses these days either have to evolve or else die on the vine as the paradigm of online shopping has now become the new reality.

Gary

 

[Fred Coulter]

While I can understand wanting to support small businesses the sad truth of the matter is that many brick and mortar stores are rapidly becoming dinosaurs.

This is even more true in Canada where electronics and music shops are often charging as much as 50% to 100% premium over online prices for the exact same gear.

The smarter ones are getting online themselves for the sake of expanding their volume and becoming more competitive in the digital age.

Fact is, if I want to audition a keyboard in person I sometimes have to make a 25 to 40 Km trip to even find a shop that even stocks keyboards, much less the particular models in which I am interested.

Supporting local business is all well and good when it comes to consumables like food and clothing and home improvement supplies, but on a thousand dollar plus item like a keyboard if I can save anywhere from 20% to 50% of the cost I will definitely end up going the online ordering route.

Businesses these days either have to evolve or else die on the vine as the paradigm of online shopping has now become the new reality.

Gary

You're making me sad.

 

[happyrat1]

Sorry to be the bearer of sad tidings but it pays to recall the fact that of the Business we call Show, 50% of it is business.

Unless your name is Emerson or Wonder chances are you are working with a limited budget when it comes to buying keys.

The ultimate goal of buying a keyboard is generally to receive the most bang for the buck, ergo these threads where people are literally asking the question, "Which keyboard gives the most bang for the buck."

I mean I'm not heartless. I donate regularly to Salvation Army and Starlight Foundation and Sick Kids Hospital, but like most plebian, working class schlobs I have a limited budget and and I simply cannot afford to add an overpriced music store to my list of favored charities.

As it is, unless you live within spitting distance of a major metropolis the chances are that you simply will not even find a particular make and model of keyboard on display in your local music shop.

The three closest to me devote 98% of their floor space to guitars and basses as it is.

And truth be told, if you are buying a floor model demonstrator, they should be willing to knock at least 25% off of the sticker price just to get it out the door.

Gary

 

[Fred Coulter]

Even Sweetwater knocks down the price of floor demos.

Speaking of keyboards, there's a Yamaha MOFX6-61 there for $1,079.99. That's above the stated budget, but not by much. Also at demo pricing is a Korg Kross 61, a used Korg M50-61, and a Roland BK-5 61, all under $1,000.

 

[happyrat1]

Actually whenever I order a keyboard online I always call them up first and see if I can negotiate a deal on a floor model.

Most places have them even when they don't list them. And it never hurts to ask.

That's how I managed to get my PC3K8 for $1000 below sticker price when I bought it two years ago.

Even though they are open box they are very good about repackaging with all the original manuals and accessories and they all qualify for full factory warranty. Plus these units have some burn in time on the floor, so infant mortality is also a reduced risk.

For a 35% savings it was a definite no brainer

Gary

 

[Rockinroller]

Anyone's preferences in keyboards is subjective as to (1) what is the individual's personal taste in music (2) what equipment best exhibits either the best factory-loaded sounds consistent with what that board will be used for (for those who are less interested in the tech-side of keyboarding), or that has the capabilities to achieve what the user is looking for, (3) cost (for most of us), and (4) form factor (weight, size, etc, plus other considerations. Obviously there's not a single keyboard that accomplishes EVERYTHING. I think the most successful keyboard purchase is a result of reducing your "needs" and "wants" to a short list and then identifying that single keyboard that accomplishes most of what you are requiring.

For me, Kurzweil's PC3 series boards have accomplished most everything I've needed in a board BUT that's based on a likely difference in musical tastes (I'm an old R&R guy who prefers meat-and-potatoes Hammond and "real" piano stuff) than what you have. However, all things being different, the Kurz' has the power to modify and save most any sound and not require an engineering degree to do so (I am a prime example!!!).

 

[aellison62]

Hello everybody. I'm glad I found this place and I dare ask your advice right away.

I am a keyboard newbie. Primarily guitarist but I hit the keys when the song calls for it. I own a Casio XW-P1 and I must admit I have hardly ever found a sound there that I really wanted. I want to replace it but this time I want to buy the right thing.

What I need:
1) cool sounds out of the box, including
- leads like e.g. in intro of Caught in a Web by Dream Theater;
- warm pads and strings like the PadSynth method in ZynAddSubFX can do if anybody knows that;
- big bell sounds like church bells;
- a generally broad palette of (adjustable) sounds;

2) decent sound versatility
- zone splitting;
- sound layering;
- actual waveform parametrization would be nice;
- real-time controls over parameters;

3) controls
- 5+ octaves;
- MIDI;

The device should be live-performance oriented. This means that low weight, durability and battery operation are a plus whereas integrated speakers, hammer mechanics, workstation features etc. less so.

Thank you in advance for your help.

I would agree with a previous post and recommend a Roland FA06. It will get everything you want from it done, and in an easy to use, real-time tweakable fashion. It will even playback samples from it's pads.

 

[cpcohen1945]

You might check in the Casio Music Forums, which has a section on the XW-P1:

http://www.casiomusicforums.com/

I suspect that most of the features you're looking for, are already in your XW-P1. The problem is with the built-in sounds. There's a lot of sound-exchange on that forum.

And a question:

. . . Is it time to learn something about synth programming?

. Charles

 

[genesisfan]

Hello everybody. I'm glad I found this place and I dare ask your advice right away.

I am a keyboard newbie. Primarily guitarist but I hit the keys when the song calls for it. I own a Casio XW-P1 and I must admit I have hardly ever found a sound there that I really wanted. I want to replace it but this time I want to buy the right thing.

What I need:
1) cool sounds out of the box, including
- leads like e.g. in intro of Caught in a Web by Dream Theater;
- warm pads and strings like the PadSynth method in ZynAddSubFX can do if anybody knows that;
- big bell sounds like church bells;
- a generally broad palette of (adjustable) sounds;

2) decent sound versatility
- zone splitting;
- sound layering;
- actual waveform parametrization would be nice;
- real-time controls over parameters;

3) controls
- 5+ octaves;
- MIDI;

The device should be live-performance oriented. This means that low weight, durability and battery operation are a plus whereas integrated speakers, hammer mechanics, workstation features etc. less so.

Thank you in advance for your help.

i have a personal customer service relationship with Sweetwater thier financing & lo prices keep me returning as a customer
at any price range you have there is a great keyboard for you ready to ship!
i would look at the KORG

 

[johnny196775]

i think it is funny that sweetwater adds candy to what i buy from them.

 

[Jimmy Alber]

I tried the Casio XWP1, and was not that impressed. The drawbar organs don't sound bad except that the rotary speaker similar is horrible! The keyboard just felt like a toy to me, and I found the step sequencer completely useless. The editing software that came with the keyboard was also very confusing compared to the Korg and Yamaha programs that I've used. I absolutely love the Korg Krome keyboards. They sound great, and the touch screens make it really easy to find sounds and change parameters, etc. I've had my 61 key for 3 years now, and my 88 key for 2 years. Both have seen a lot of use, and I haven't had any problems whatsoever. I have also owned several Yamaha keyboards in the past that I really liked. I would suggest either the Korg Krome, or a Yamaha MOXF.