Bad experience with Yamaha tech support

[brainstormer]

I am using a MODX7. My third new Yamaha keyboard as well as owning many other used Yamaha
keyboards (over 10).

I am not a very obsessive person or a complainer. I tend to be forgiving when people make mistakes. It took an outright wrong answer, by a three word reply, sent after not answering my third reply from tech support to get me to the level of wanting to discuss this with other people. After my third reply with a question I was sent a Yamaha corporation survey.

I asked "There does not seem to be a simple way to pick a patch, and hit arp and cycle through all the available arp patterns. Is there? Everything related to arps seem to be very buried in menus. " Then I asked," there doesn't seem to be a way to cycle through all the different patches while on the same arp. "

I eventually discovered there were various ways to do this last part, but not that easily, and none of them seem optimally created for the creative experimental musician.

Even the Piagerro and E403 that I have has features that if I old down the Arp button I get to cycle
through all the different ARP patterns. But unlike the CSX1, they will not let you pick different
patches very easily when one arp pattern is held. They seem to go off each time and you have
to reset various aspects of how you changed the patches and so on. This limits my musical expression. I thought maybe it was to favor "people who can actually play" but I have had several years of classical piano lessons and started writing music on paper when I was around 10, so
I don't take seriously letting using the ARP be held in disregard as a serious musical tool.

The MODX has that design philosophy to show you less information. Even the cursor buttons
are not labeled as such. But, seriously, why would they not want us to be able to cycle through
the different Arp patterns easily when holding down on Arps? Or now allow people to easily switch
patches when using that feature?

With my CSX1 I was able to do this and it created some beautiful effects. I have been playing
synths since 1976 and it seems the MODX while an amazing instrument has some limits programmed into it, sort of like the way some people lament modern music has been limited (I only listen to interesting music, and so the recent Stereolab album is what I think about when people say "modern music"). None of the ways to play the main synth engine and the Arps seem optimally created for the creative musician. A synthesizer should be an open calculus of all possibilities but the Yamaha philosophy seems to be inline more with something a big music label would create and promote. It makes me consider returning the keyboard but I am thinking of keeping it.

A guitar center employee specializing in keyboards knew exactly what I was talking about and put his own spin on it.

Calling a few days later the main tech support line, the person I talked to would not talk to me much because the person who was up the chain as far as technical answers left a not that I wanted to talk about this issue). I wanted to discuss other features. But he forwarded me to him and he was the guy who sent me the three word (wrong) reply. I had to stress I was polite with all of these people. The only time I was assertive about my problems was with the Yamaha Corp survey.

One of the most negative customer service experiences I've had with a bigger company with an item with a bigger price tag.

Now, I've been online in the Internet since 1991, so I know all about the trolls and people that circumvent any meaningful conversation with their lame wannabe dad jokes and the like. You will be ignored. I don't even need a dialog about this but willing if there are any concerned replies.

 

[Keithmac]

As I was reading your post, one phrase you wrote struck a nerve with me prompting me to reply...

"None <insert keyboard/feature here> seem optimally created for the creative musician."

Like you, I've been playing personally and professionally since the 70s, and grew up with the ARPs and Moogs of the time listening to the creative musicians like Wendy Carlos and Keith Emerson who truly explored the capability of electronic music of the era. In those days, "playing the notes" was a given - the easy part if you will (especially because most synths were monophonic!) - and the real fun was creating sounds and textures unique to the instrument. The Beatles were doing this in the 60s - check out Paul McCartney's video demo'ing the Mellotron as one of the first commercial samplers. Watch to the end to see the very cool (and very unique at the time) use of the "PITCH" wheel on "Strawberry Fields". Truly "creative musicians" of our time.

Fast forward to the 80s. This was, to quote Dickens (not Styx), "the best of times, the worst of times". Analog synths were dominant, with Jupiter's, OBX's, Phophet's and MemoryMoog's (I still have mine!) leading the way. At the same time, micro-computer technology was booming with the IBM-PC becoming mainstream. As technologies merged, we had the beginnings of commercial samplers (I used a Prophet 2000), the LinnDrum emerged, and Yahama introduced the DX7.

This brings me to the point I believe you were making. The DX7 was a huge success for Yahama - obviously. However its revolutionary FM synthesis and, not to mention, a total lack of knobs (you had to have knobs!) made creating your own patches too complicated for most musicians. And why bother, the DX7 had great factory presets! So great that every Hollywood songwriter, engineer, and producer used the DX7 ad nauseam. That digital Rhodes-like sound was "the sound" of the 80s, and Yamaha still include DX patches in their instruments today. The best of times?

What started the worst of times is that the industry got lazy, and relied on factory presets, which in turn made the rest of us playing in cover bands lazy because our keyboards had that same DX7 patch, so we didn't need to create either. At the time, I was so anti-DX7 that I got a DX sample from my local music store that I used in my Prophet 2000 (I sure showed them!). But this was the 80s, so my Prophet also kept me from hauling a Kustom 88 or CP-70 around, and let me cover "Owner of a Lonely Heart" and all the other 80s songs that overused sampling. That was just a weird but evolutionary time. (And I'll admit that I'd have been better off with a DX7 to complement my MemoryMoog at the time!)

So, although I understand why Yamaha and others are building keyboards for performers not creators. That's where the money is, and with the rich set of factory presets, they are ready to go out of the box. Your poor Tech Support experience is saddening, as they have evidently forgotten how they got where they are and who put them there.

We are definitely losing creativity in all aspects of the music industry. I prefer music where real musicians play and sing, and they l do it live - or at least with a respectable amount of post-production, and absolutely no autotune.

 

[olhobbler]

I am using a MODX7. My third new Yamaha keyboard as well as owning many other used Yamaha
keyboards (over 10).

I am not a very obsessive person or a complainer. I tend to be forgiving when people make mistakes. It took an outright wrong answer, by a three word reply, sent after not answering my third reply from tech support to get me to the level of wanting to discuss this with other people. After my third reply with a question I was sent a Yamaha corporation survey.

I asked "There does not seem to be a simple way to pick a patch, and hit arp and cycle through all the available arp patterns. Is there? Everything related to arps seem to be very buried in menus. " Then I asked," there doesn't seem to be a way to cycle through all the different patches while on the same arp. "

I eventually discovered there were various ways to do this last part, but not that easily, and none of them seem optimally created for the creative experimental musician.

Even the Piagerro and E403 that I have has features that if I old down the Arp button I get to cycle
through all the different ARP patterns. But unlike the CSX1, they will not let you pick different
patches very easily when one arp pattern is held. They seem to go off each time and you have
to reset various aspects of how you changed the patches and so on. This limits my musical expression. I thought maybe it was to favor "people who can actually play" but I have had several years of classical piano lessons and started writing music on paper when I was around 10, so
I don't take seriously letting using the ARP be held in disregard as a serious musical tool.

The MODX has that design philosophy to show you less information. Even the cursor buttons
are not labeled as such. But, seriously, why would they not want us to be able to cycle through
the different Arp patterns easily when holding down on Arps? Or now allow people to easily switch
patches when using that feature?

With my CSX1 I was able to do this and it created some beautiful effects. I have been playing
synths since 1976 and it seems the MODX while an amazing instrument has some limits programmed into it, sort of like the way some people lament modern music has been limited (I only listen to interesting music, and so the recent Stereolab album is what I think about when people say "modern music"). None of the ways to play the main synth engine and the Arps seem optimally created for the creative musician. A synthesizer should be an open calculus of all possibilities but the Yamaha philosophy seems to be inline more with something a big music label would create and promote. It makes me consider returning the keyboard but I am thinking of keeping it.

A guitar center employee specializing in keyboards knew exactly what I was talking about and put his own spin on it.

Calling a few days later the main tech support line, the person I talked to would not talk to me much because the person who was up the chain as far as technical answers left a not that I wanted to talk about this issue). I wanted to discuss other features. But he forwarded me to him and he was the guy who sent me the three word (wrong) reply. I had to stress I was polite with all of these people. The only time I was assertive about my problems was with the Yamaha Corp survey.

One of the most negative customer service experiences I've had with a bigger company with an item with a bigger price tag.

Now, I've been online in the Internet since 1991, so I know all about the trolls and people that circumvent any meaningful conversation with their lame wannabe dad jokes and the like. You will be ignored. I don't even need a dialog about this but willing if there are any concerned replies.

 

[olhobbler]

I use a e403 playing out.. its light.. great piano along with other voices..i wouldnt mind a used step up by yamaha..i prefer 61 keys unweighted.. do u have any model that comes to mind

 

[amwilburn]

Keith, that's all very fair and valid; yes they probably do sell more catering to cover bands/one man bands, especially in Germany!

I'm not a MODx expert; I'm the Yamaha arranger specialist, so I'd have to do some homework to sort out what Brainstormer said.

But yes, on the arrangers, it's easy enough to hold a patch and try different arpeggios; but you're right, it hadn't even occured to me to hold the arpeggio and swap patches. But of course, you can: you just select "harmony/arpeggio" in the freeze menu, select your arpeggio, then turn on freeze, and you can then cycle through different voices (patches) while keeping the same arpeggio.

A synth and an arranger aren't the same thing, but there's enough overlap between them that there should be a way to do both, yes.

I don't know about Yamaha USA's product support; I know they ask their main arranger specialist (Knudsen) for arranger queries (and yes they've even emailed me... Yamaha Canada emails me all the time on arranger support, lol. But Yamaha usa won't be asking me again, since the guy that worked there who would send me queries, who originally worked at Yamaha Canada, has recently moved on from Yamaha USA).

But that's for arrangers; I've unfortunately no idea who deals with workstation inquiries in the USA (in Canada, it would be Alejandro). But I feel like asking keyboard forums like this one, or possibly at Yamaha synth forums?

Synth Forum

Synth Discussion Board

yamahasynth.com

Mark

 

[happyrat1]

It's been over 25 years since the incident but I had a run in with yammie tech support that left a very sour taste in my mouth for a lifetime.

It was over class compliant midi and yammie's total lack of empathy for their customers.

I was told in no uncertain terms to buy a new computer.. P