Help... i don't know what i need!!!!!

[biggav]

I am playing live music with my band and currently have a 10 year old yamaha keyboard which has great piano, organ, flute, strings and synth sounds. I dont need, use or want acompanyment, bass lines, drums or any of that as my band are all profesional musicians... (i don't know how i pulled it off!!!!) What i need is to be able to assign different sounds to different keys on the keyboard.... we play 80's rock and pop and in some songs, i need strings, sax, piano and organ... also the dredded orchestra hit for "View to a kill" by duran duran... i would also like to assign chords to a single key... it's not that i'm lazy and want to cheat, it's just that being the singer and front man, i have enough on my mind without trying to pull a 7th minor diminished out of a hat while singing a hi line with my eyes shut! on the subject of cheating... i could also do with recording my solo's and assigning them to a pad or key to prevent bum notes and cock ups. Does such a keyboard exist?

Your's faithfully

Gavin, aged 30.

 

[biggav]

I have just been advised to get a laptop, m-audio fast track and logic pro along with a midi controller... does that sound right?

 

[jpscoey]

'
Who on Earth has told you to do that???

Ignore their 'advice'.

For performing live that would be the last thing to look for! - unless you don't really
want to 'play' at all... in which case you could sack the rest of the band & do gigs
using a karaoke machine!

You've outlined your musical requirements but, as ever, what you can get
depends on how much you've got to spend?

You will stand a better chance of recieving answers if you could be a
bit more specific!


.

 

[kanthos]

jpscoey, I think you're thinking a bit more like a keyboard player and less like a producer here. Think about it: if you were a producer, you want to make sure that the band gets the right sound live, ideally without adding any more members (which means the band gets less money per person for a gig or has to somehow increase ticket prices or get a venue to pay them more). LOTS of bands use pre-recorded material to augment what they do on-stage simply because they don't want extra performers. Even jazz acts like the Pat Metheny Group use the occasional recorded material (The Roots of Coincidence is a good example of that) because there's more happening in the studio than they can possibly capture live without adding more players and keyboards and electronics to the band. It's also quite common for bands to use laptops and controllers on-stage nowadays rather than (or in addition to) traditional keyboards. Lyle Mays from the Pat Metheny Group does, so do bands like Radiohead and Interpol. I wouldn't write this approach off.

That said, I agree with your position if it's specific to recording vocal parts though; that *is* cheap. If you as a performer can't sing your part correctly and don't want to deal with the fact that even the best performers make mistakes sometimes and so you will too, then performance isn't for you. Triggering parts you can't really handle live is one thing; triggering stuff you can (and should!) do yourself is something else entirely. Music is too over-produced nowadays. If I ever was in a concert where any "performer" was using just pre-recorded material or the vocalist was lipsyncing, that band would never get a cent of my money again, and I'd leave the concert immediately; that isn't music, it's theatrics.

Anyway, Gavin, you'll probably have a much easier time with a laptop setup than a traditional workstation keyboard setup with regards to triggering phrases and chords, especially if you'll have a lot of different things you want to trigger. Within a given song, it shouldn't make much difference, but I'd anticipate a bit of downtime between songs while you load new sequences on the keyboard, while the laptop should be able to switch fairly quickly. The downside there is that you'll probably have to have all the samples for a gig loaded in memory at the start of the gig; switching between virtual instruments or loading new samples can be time-consuming and isn't something you'd deal with if you're using samples only in a workstation's ROM. This isn't a big problem depending on the number and type of instruments you want to load, but it does take some cleverness to have a live rig set up well.

I would, however, encourage you to do all you can to learn the keyboard parts in addition to your vocals. It's not easy, but sacrificing a bit of variety in the keyboard parts in order to perform everything live is probably not a bad thing, depending on the kind of material your band performs. My opinion is that if a part is simple enough for one person to handle it and you don't have an unsustainable amount of members in the band already, get a new person or have an existing person play it live (i.e. if your keyboard parts can be handled by a single dedicated person, I'd look at finding someone who can do that). If your keyboard parts are so intricate that it'll take 3 or 4 people to pull it off, that's clearly too much to handle without using pre-recorded material. Really, you know your material and need to determine the line between pre-recorded material and live material. Just don't be like so many others and sacrifice your musicianship in pursuit of studio perfection in a live setting.

 

[meisenhower]

Gavin:

Here's the "rub" with the laptop, logic pro and M-Audio Fast Track suggestion.

Aside what was already mentioned by Kanthos and John (which were both spot on), all of the aforementioned acts who are using PC's and sequencing programs, as well as VSTi's to "augment" sounds are using redundant systems, running concurrently. All the bigs have two (and some like Interpol, Massive Attack, Radiohead have THREE systems running, fully synced at one time). Why? Computers crash. It's not a question of IF, it's just a matter of when. A fully digital rig is great, if you have a redundant system to back you up. If not, you'll be standing on stage, accompanying yourself when your PC goes down.

If you're looking for single key trigger for certain parts (hits) and recorded voices, you need sampling capability (both play and record).

If you want to play chords, via one key or button, that's more in the "arranger" keyboard area, but you'll forgo things like sampling.

One machine that would likely fill all your requirements would be the Korg M3. It has assignable buttons or pads, that you can assign and trigger "chords" with, sampling, sequencing and fully DAW/sequencing integration. The Korg M50 has similar features, except no sampling.

The Yamaha Motif's can do all the above, except they don't have those trigger pads or buttons to assign chords to, however you can do it by assigning chords in patterns, arpeggiators, performances or sequences.

I'm sure there are other keyboards that have similar capabilities, but since I play everything live, and sing at the same time, I've never explored these other alternatives for live performance.

Anyway you slice it, you're looking to replace technical ability with technology and in a live situation, that often comes out "mechanical." If you've got a group of "hot musicians", they're not going to be too fond of playing "back up" to a machine driven frontman.

At the very minimum, you're asking for a pretty tall order and assuming you find that magical technological solution, then you have the learning curve, setup and assimilation to make it all work.

Learning the parts and additional practice sounds easier (and less expensive) to me!!

Your mileage may vary.

Good luck.

Ray

 

[biggav]

I'd love to learn all of the parts, i'd need 3 keyboards to do it though!!! I guess i'll have to look through and see if i can loose some of the non essential stuff. I'm a vocalsist and second guitarist playing keyboards is just something else i do. Practice wise, i have 4 kids aged 6 and under so i can manage about 30 mins a day after they go to bed with headphones on (no singing) and the band are practicing every sunday and its obvious that they play for hours every day (and have no kids!)

We have looked for a dedicated keyboard player, but no one we've tried is good enough... i guess i'm going to have to find some more practice time!!!!

 

[kanthos]

Fair enough; I obviously didn't know your situation. I would try to improve at singing and playing simultaneously as you can, but not having a lot of practice time does make a difference.

If you're doing stuff so complex that you need three actual keyboards to create the sounds (and not one keyboard with multiple simultaneous parts and either a really talented player or some use of triggers and sequences), then a laptop is probably the only real way to go. (Well, I guess you could buy three different keyboards and rig them up, but that's just getting overly complex). My keyboard rig is two keyboards, but that's largely because they have different purposes and create different sounds. If I really used splits well, I could get by with one keyboard and a rack module. Anyway, again without having heard your band's material, it seems like a laptop and controller will be the easiest option.

What kind of controller are you looking at? 88 keys? 61 or 73/76? Weighted or semi-weighted? Haven't thought about that yet?

 

[meisenhower]

Gavin:

You're in a bit of a tough spot with all that you have going on (personally and professionally). I can dig where you're coming from with respects to practice time.

Realistically it sounds like you really need to hire a keyboard player (and keep looking until you find one), as any other option will likely be overly technical and expensive.

Otherwise, Kanthos's suggestion of a laptop and controller is the way to go.

I'd certainly be interested in hearing a sample of this music!!!!

Cheers.

Ray

 

[biggav]

I've worked my way through our 55 track set list and theres about 5 songs i just can't get.... I can play them in a different key but i just cant grasp them where they are meant to be

 

[jpscoey]

Could you name what they are & what you want to do with them?

 

[biggav]

I have managed to get everything down on the list except for "hot water" by Level 42 which has a tricky intro which i can just play at full speed and a great base line which is played on keyboards and by the bass player. I'm looking for suitable midi files but nothing quite hits it on the head, i may have to resort to dusting off cubase and doing my own!!!