How to count this 4 beat measure?

[Neutron]

Hi again, hope you're all doing well.
Was wondering if anyone could tell me how I should count this measure (the treble clef part)? There are 16th notes in the rest of the piece, so I'm counting '1-e-&-a, 2-e-&-a, 3-e-&-a, 4-e-&-a', but I'm confused as to where the notes in the first two beats belong on the '1-e-&-a, 2-e-&-a' . I'm not used to seeing an eight note in the beginning of a 4 beat measure?

 

[Biggles]

The starting 1/8 note is an E and takes the count 1 e, the next is a D which commences on the ... & ... so the D is held from playing it on the & as ... & a 2 e

Replacing the appropriare count notation with a Capital letter denoting the actual note gives me a count of:-

E e D a 2 e C a F e G a E e F a

Grief, its like doing Algebra again.

 

[Rayblewit]

There are 4 beats in that bar.
But there are 7 dots in the bar.
To convert the dots to beats is a matter of knowing the value of each dot and that there values add up to 4
The second dot on the bar is a D and is a whole beat = 1
Every other dot is a half beat and there are 6 of them = 3

I'm confused as to where the notes in the first two beats belong

It goes . . .
e D c f g e f.
The capital D is a whole note but since you have aleady played a half note e on the first beat then the D will overlap into the second beat . . Then you continue the bar all being half notes.

Ray

 

[Rayblewit]

Here is another example similar to the OP's capture. (please look at .jpg image.)
In "Pennies from Heaven" The first note is a half note on the left side of the first bar.
So, this in mind, can @Neutron play his/her piece like this and send the first note left and and play the second note D as a full note with a dot (1 1/2 beats) ?

Comments?

Ray

 

[Neutron]

Thank you, I think I understand now! I was almost there but couldn't really get it to fit with the 4 beats, but it adds up now. I wasn't aware that the quarter note could start on the "&" part, I guess that's what confused me.

 

[CowboyNQ]

can @Neutron play his/her piece like this and send the first note left and and play the second note D as a full note with a dot (1 1/2 beats)

Hey Ray,

Short answer is "no" without materially changing the song.

 

[Rayblewit]

[QUOTE="CowboyNQ, post: 196583, member: 6792"answer is "no" without materially changing the song.[/QUOTE]

This answer really surprised me.
Just a split second doesn't really change the rest of the song.

 

[SeaGtGruff]

I would count it "1 and, and 3 and 4 and," completing forgetting about trying to count any sixteenth notes until they're needed.

 

[CowboyNQ]

This answer really surprised me.
Just a split second doesn't really change the rest of the song.

Well mate of course we're free to play the song any way we like.

But if the composer wrote the song in a particular way and we change the timing, we're essentially changing the song.

 

[SeaGtGruff]

PS - The rhythm of the first few notes remind me of "Living in the Past" by Jethro Tull, although that has five beats per bar-- "1 and, and 3 and 4, 5, 1 and, and 3 and 4, 5."

 

[Rayblewit]

But if the composer wrote the song in a particular way and we change the timing, we're essentially changing the song.

I was not changing the timing of the song!
I was just changing the first bar . . so as to make an easy lead in.
The rest of the bars stay are as intended. . . having said that, It was just a suggestion! One or two beats to begin with (out of timing) wouldn't or shouldn't be noticed if in the right key!
The OP was confused by a half note and a full note taking up ONE beat.

 

[Rayblewit]

"Living in the Past" by Jethro Tull,

Man! You are on my page!

However,
I think Living in the Past is in a weird timing . . like Dave Brubeck's "Take Five"

 

[Rayblewit]

5/4 Timing . . I think!

 

[Biggles]

[QUOTE="CowboyNQ, post: 196583, member: 6792"answer is "no" without materially changing the song.

This answer really surprised me.
Just a split second doesn't really change the rest of the song.[/QUOTE]

It can change the rest of the song as in this case it would put the melody line 1/8 th of a beat behind the Bass line and any other backing

 

[Rayblewit]

It can change the rest of the song as in this case it would put the melody line 1/8 th of a beat behind the Bass line and any other backing

Rubbish! .. The beats have not changed at all. Each bar is 4 beats and the melody responds to that.
I was suggesting that ONE and only ONE bar being the first bar could be modified to accommodate the half note in question to blend in.

The whole trend of this thread has been twisted to crucify and upset my theory of timing!

btw. . @Neutron . What is that tune you posted? I would like to play it.

Ray

 

[Biggles]

Rubbish! .. The beats have not changed at all. Each bar is 4 beats and the melody responds to that.
I was suggesting that ONE and only ONE bar being the first bar could be modified to accommodate the half note in question to blend in.

The whole trend of this thread has been twisted to crucify and upset my theory of timing!

btw. . @Neutron . What is that tune you posted? I would like to play it.

Ray

No

According to Ray’s Expansion Theory the first Treble bar will be extended by an 1/8 th to
4 1/8 beats whereas the Bass will remain at 4 beats, that well is ............

The way to solve the problem applying it to Neutrons query is to have a new first 4/4 bar where the first 3 7/8 beats are silent as per your Pennies From Heaven

 

[SeaGtGruff]

Yes, as I said, "Living in the Past" has five beats per bar-- so it's 5/4 time. The rhythm of the bass line is "1 and, and 3 and 4, 5" whereas the vocal is more like "1, and, 4, 5," where both the "1" and the "and" are dotted quarter notes.

The bar that was posted is rhythmically similar to the bass line of "Living in the Past" except for the last beat-- "1 and, and 3 and 4 and."

I see no reason to count any sixteenth notes in the first bar if they aren't there, as I think it just confuses things.

 

[CowboyNQ]

5/4 Timing . . I think!

Yep they're both in 5/4.

Hence the name of Brubeck's tune.

 

[CowboyNQ]

I was not changing the timing of the song. I was just changing the first bar . . so as to make an easy lead in.

Haha ok Ray changing where the notes fall in the bars IS changing the timing of a song.

I certainly didn't say you were changing the time SIGNATURE of the song. Two different things.

And look no need to lose sleep over it. You asked for opinions, you got mine. You're well within your rights to disagree.

I'll repeat myself: You can change a song around any way you like, there's no law against it. But are you playing it as the composer wrote it? No.

 

[Rayblewit]

And look no need to lose sleep over it. You asked for opinions, you got mine. You're well within your rights to disagree.

Nah! Never lost sleep! Just woke up from roughly 7 hrs.
As for disagreeing with you . . NEVER!
You have been a mentor for me Paul and I have huge respect for you.

As for Col and Michael . . Most respected too.

Been an interesting thread to say the least. It's amazing where one simple question can lead too.

Anyway today is Sunday. Wife suggests we go to our local sports club for lunch and then have 20 rounds of Bingo!
Prizes are $10, $20 $200 and $500 .
Raffles for wine and venue vouchers too.

Our lunch friends don't talk music . . So no aguments . lol
Just football, cricket and politics.
Do you think I might avoid arguments?
HaHa!
Ray