[JUNO DS-61] Why would Roland even implement the ability to export your patterns as MIDI files, if the MIDI files come out wrong?

[ocomobock]

I'm very sad. I made 128 different patterns (the keyboard's limit), only to find out that there's no way to export them off of the keyboard. I exported them to a thumbdrive, and when I listened back, I was horrified to hear that every single instrument in the song had been converted to piano. The patterns sound nothing like they did on my keyboard.

I'm not even looking for advice, I've already scoured the internet looking for a solution. Everything I've found seems to suggest that I'm out of luck. I guess I'm just posting this in hopes that someone finds my misery amusing.

If anyone here has a Roland Juno and they're thinking of going buck wild making tons of patterns on your keyboard: think twice. They make it damn near impossible to get those things off.

But seriously, why do they even allow you to export the MIDI files if every track in the pattern gets turned into piano? What use is that to anyone? Whose idea was it to implement this deceiving feature? Why do they give you hope and comfort, only to rip it all away after you've already gone to the trouble of preparing a thumbdrive and putting it in your computer?

I'm just defeated. Thanks for reading, I know this post doesn't really promote discussion. I hope someone got something out of my pain. Thank you!

 

[happyrat1]

Does it export each MIDI channel as a separate track when viewed in a DAW or are they all merged to a single track?

This could be important. If they are one channel (instrument) per track it would be possible to change the instrument values in a DAW software.

At that point you would have an SMF MID file to work with and that format is universal.

Gary

 

[happyrat1]

BTW, Roland could very easily rewrite the firmware to allow sequencer export if they wanted to. In fact they might even have planned it for a later date as a "paid upgrade" like they have done with some popular products in the past.

Perhaps they haven't yet reached their sales target for such a release?

Whatever the case, for the time being if we can hack a kludge to extract MID beats from a thumb drive then we'd be doing a huge service for the community.

Gary

 

[ocomobock]

Does it export each MIDI channel as a separate track when viewed in a DAW or are they all merged to a single track?

This could be important. If they are one channel (instrument) per track it would be possible to change the instrument values in a DAW software.

At that point you would have an SMF MID file to work with and that format is universal.

Gary

I'm happy to report that the MIDI files are divided into different channels. I did end up using Cakewalk (thanks for recommending that on another thread!), and I was able to change the instruments in there.

That's all good and nice I guess, but I am certain there could be an easier way to export patterns and then load them back into the keyboard for when you wanna use them later. If enough people were vocal enough, maybe Roland would consider adding a simple fix... I'm not quite smart enough to make my own program to do all this for me.

One way or another, hopefully someone fixes this problem someday. I honestly didn't expect them to exclude this feature. In fact, I was under the impression I could just back up all data on the keyboard onto a thumbdrive, and then have multiple folders of patterns I could just load whenever I wanted. Something like that would be awesome- a setup where you could just have tons of different backups, holding thousands of patterns.

However, If the MIDI files don't even get written onto the thumbdrive from the keyboard properly, I'm not sure how the community could resolve this problem since it seems to be a firmware problem. Unless it's possible to change the firmware yourself.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply!

 

[happyrat1]

I work exclusively with hardware synthesizers and DAWS. It's really not as bad as you think. The mechanics of the operation will become trivial to you with time, and like I said, MIDI is universal. You'll be able to play your beats long after your Juno is rusting on the scrap heap!!!

Just to remember to do multiple backups, frequently and religiously for a happy future in computer music.

Nothing stinks more than having a 2 or 3 year old thumb drive suddenly fail on you without a backup. For that matter this applies to all sorts of digital storage.

In the industry, we call a thumbdrive export a "sneakernet"

Gary
\

 

[anotherscott]

But seriously, why do they even allow you to export the MIDI files if every track in the pattern gets turned into piano?

Well, I'd say it's not so much being "turned into piano" as that it is simply a MIDI pattern with no sound whatsoever, and the keyboard's default is to play MIDI files with its piano sound. Of course MIDI files never contain any audio, so what you're really talking about missing are the MIDI Program Change commands to tell the keyboard which sounds to use. But the way the DS works, the sound assignments are not part of the MIDI pattern, the sound assignments are part of the Performance you use to play the MIDI pattern. (Which also means you can re-use the same pattern in numerous Performances, with different sounds.) So, while I haven't done anything lke this, I think the solution you're looking for "to export patterns and then load them back into the keyboard for when you wanna use them later" is to backup and restore not just the patterns, but the associated performances as well, which is where the sound data is stored.

BTW, Roland could very easily rewrite the firmware to allow sequencer export if they wanted to. In fact they might even have planned it for a later date as a "paid upgrade" like they have done with some popular products in the past.

I can't think of any "paid upgrades" for Roland keyboards. Optional soundpacks/particular synth emulations ("plug-outs"), okay. But not actual operational improved features. Did I forget something?

 

[happyrat1]

Didn't Roland offer a paid upgrade for the TR-8 before they introduced the TR-8S?

I seem to recall this not too long ago.

Gary

 

[ocomobock]

Well, I'd say it's not so much being "turned into piano" as that it is simply a MIDI pattern with no sound whatsoever, and the keyboard's default is to play MIDI files with its piano sound. Of course MIDI files never contain any audio, so what you're really talking about missing are the MIDI Program Change commands to tell the keyboard which sounds to use. But the way the DS works, the sound assignments are not part of the MIDI pattern, the sound assignments are part of the Performance you use to play the MIDI pattern. (Which also means you can re-use the same pattern in numerous Performances, with different sounds.) So, while I haven't done anything lke this, I think the solution you're looking for "to export patterns and then load them back into the keyboard for when you wanna use them later" is to backup and restore not just the patterns, but the associated performances as well, which is where the sound data is stored.


I can't think of any "paid upgrades" for Roland keyboards. Optional soundpacks/particular synth emulations ("plug-outs"), okay. But not actual operational improved features. Did I forget something?

Thanks for this reply! Very helpful. I don't know a lot about this kind of stuff haha

 

[Emilio8]

I'm happy to report that the MIDI files are divided into different channels. I did end up using Cakewalk (thanks for recommending that on another thread!), and I was able to change the instruments in there.

That's all good and nice I guess, but I am certain there could be an easier way to export patterns and then load them back into the keyboard for when you wanna use them later. If enough people were vocal enough, maybe Roland would consider adding a simple fix... I'm not quite smart enough to make my own program to do all this for me.

One way or another, hopefully someone fixes this problem someday. I honestly didn't expect them to exclude this feature. In fact, I was under the impression I could just back up all data on the keyboard onto a thumbdrive, and then have multiple folders of patterns I could just load whenever I wanted. Something like that would be awesome- a setup where you could just have tons of different backups, holding thousands of patterns.

However, If the MIDI files don't even get written onto the thumbdrive from the keyboard properly, I'm not sure how the community could resolve this problem since it seems to be a firmware problem. Unless it's possible to change the firmware yourself.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply!

Hi, how did you manage to export your tracks as separate midi channels? When I export the midi file to my usb, all the tracks merge in one midi file and is almost unusable.

A solution to your problem could be to save your sequence as a performance. This will save all the instruments you used for a specific song in 16 channels. You can then import all the midi tracks you exported, activate DAW mode and select each sound with the corresponding channel on your juno. For example, for your first channel, you import the midi notes in your daw, configure your track (Also in the daw) so that the notes trigger channel 1 on the juno (which is whatever which instrument you linked to the first channel). Basically you saved the bank of sounds as a performance that you link, channel by channel in your daw to your juno. Example
Track 1 (daw) —> Channel 1 Juno
Track 2 (daw) —-> Channel 2 juno
Etc.
Then you can record the playback of each channel as a wave file and complete your song in the daw. It’s long and tedious but that’s the only way I know.

 

[ocomobock]

Hi, how did you manage to export your tracks as separate midi channels? When I export the midi file to my usb, all the tracks merge in one midi file and is almost unusable.

A solution to your problem could be to save your sequence as a performance. This will save all the instruments you used for a specific song in 16 channels. You can then import all the midi tracks you exported, activate DAW mode and select each sound with the corresponding channel on your juno. For example, for your first channel, you import the midi notes in your daw, configure your track (Also in the daw) so that the notes trigger channel 1 on the juno (which is whatever which instrument you linked to the first channel). Basically you saved the bank of sounds as a performance that you link, channel by channel in your daw to your juno. Example
Track 1 (daw) —> Channel 1 Juno
Track 2 (daw) —-> Channel 2 juno
Etc.
Then you can record the playback of each channel as a wave file and complete your song in the daw. It’s long and tedious but that’s the only way I know.

Hi, sorry for the late response. All I know is that when I export the MIDI files by going to Pattern Sequencer -> Menu -> Pattern Utility -> SMF Export, it gets exported as a MID file. When I imported one of those files back into the keyboard, it had all the different channels in their original spots, but the instrument for all of them was piano.

When I loaded one of the MID files into a DAW, it also separated all the tracks for me, but again, all the same instrument. Not sure why the channels get separated for me but they just do.

Thanks for the advice! It does sound tedious but it's good to know that it sounds like there's at least some way to get the patterns off.

 

[anotherscott]

when I export the MIDI files by going to Pattern Sequencer -> Menu -> Pattern Utility -> SMF Export, it gets exported as a MID file. When I imported one of those files back into the keyboard, it had all the different channels in their original spots, but the instrument for all of them was piano.

Probably because the sound assignments are part of the Performance, and not part of the Pattern. Can you assign the reloaded pattern to the same performance you played it with originally? If you can, I bet you get all the sounds back.

When I loaded one of the MID files into a DAW, it also separated all the tracks for me, but again, all the same instrument.

Again, probably "all the same instrument" because the MIDI file doesn't include any sound assignments. Remember, MIDI data by definition includes no audio. The only way it's even *possible* for two platforms to exchange MIDI data and have them automatically play at least some facsimile of the same kinds of sounds is if you stick with GM (General MIDI) sounds, and both platforms are GM-compatible. But even then, there needs to be some mechanism for embedding GM Program Changes into the MIDI file (which the Juno may not do). If you want to hear your non-GM instrument assignments in your DAW (or even your GM ones, if you want them to be exactly the same as what you hear from the keyboard itself), you'd need to either record the audio into your DAW (rather than merely transferring the MIDI), or leave the keyboard connected and make sure the DAW is sending the appropriate patch change commands to the keyboard, in order to play those sounds back in real time from within the keyboard itself.

 

[Emilio8]

Hi, sorry for the late response. All I know is that when I export the MIDI files by going to Pattern Sequencer -> Menu -> Pattern Utility -> SMF Export, it gets exported as a MID file. When I imported one of those files back into the keyboard, it had all the different channels in their original spots, but the instrument for all of them was piano.

When I loaded one of the MID files into a DAW, it also separated all the tracks for me, but again, all the same instrument. Not sure why the channels get separated for me but they just do.

Thanks for the advice! It does sound tedious but it's good to know that it sounds like there's at least some way to get the patterns off.

No problem! For when you import back the midi file in the juno it’s absolutely normal that the instrument will only be the piano because the midi file does not contain the instrument information, only the notes. That’s just how midi works. Unless there is a new version that can add this metadata, that I’m not sure.

For what I explained above, I actually found a better solution than to save your sequencer instruments as a performance. You can actually skip this process and just load your « song » in the sequencer on the juno and trigger each sound to each respective midi channel in your DAW as explained above and record in audio format. All channels are respective (Track 1 -> midi channel 1, etc, except the track 8 is linked to midi channel 10 oddly). Just save your sequence on your juno and you can come back to it anytime if you still have the exported midi file. I would have loved better integration but this is what we got...

Also, I figured how to import the midi file from the juno and get separate tracks. It turns out Ableton Live Standard does not support the juno midi file and merges everything in one track. I then tried importing with Reason and all the tracks were separate as they should. I then re-exported as a midi file from Reason and re-imported in Ableton Live and everything was separate and well. Pretty weird why Live can’t separate the tracks...

 

[anotherscott]

For when you import back the midi file in the juno it’s absolutely normal that the instrument will only be the piano because the midi file does not contain the instrument information, only the notes. That’s just how midi works. Unless there is a new version that can add this metadata, that I’m not sure.

Actually, the Juno DS has a "Save as Performance" feature for the pattern sequencer, to address this. From p. 3 of the parameter guide:

Settings related to the sound of the pattern (preset/user) used in the pattern sequencer can be saved as a performance.
For example, if you want to export a pattern to SMF, use your DAW to edit it into a complete song, and then use the JUNO-DS to play this song data, the performance saved by the “SAVE AS PERFORM” function can be recalled to play the data using the original sound.