MoXF6 Pianos all sound muddy and muted - velocity problem

[hernejj]

I'm having trouble with a brand new Yamaha MoXF6 keyboard. All of the default piano sounds are muddy and muted. I am only able to make them sound good if I set the velocity response to Fixed with a velocity setting of 127. This is not an acceptable solution because I then must completely give up any kind of dynamic velocity. If I set the keyboard's velocity response setting to anything else (normal, soft, hard or wide) then everything sounds muddy again unless I hit the keys so hard I feel like I'm going to break the keyboard. I feel like something must be wrong with this instrument.

I've found a few forum posts where others have reported the same problem. All anyone ever says is that pressure sensitivity is a matter of preference. The problem I'm seeing cannot be a matter of technique or preference. I wish I knew someone with a MoXF6 and I could go try theirs out just to get a comparison. If this were common to all MOXF6 units then no one would be able to use this keyboard. I’m not being gentle on the thing and even with “soft” I still cannot produce a decent sound.

Does anyone have any suggestions?

 

[delaware dave]

What are you listening the MoxF through, headphones? Keyboard amp? Monitors? Please describe in detail the output you are listening through and exactly how it is routed. As an example:. "My MoxF's two analog main outputs are connected to an Alto ZMX862 mixer using two TRS 1/4" cables. The two outputs of the mixer are then connected to two JBL PRX812 monitors using two TRS cables. The mixer's EQ controls are running flat (12 oclock position). The speakers are also running a flat EQ and the volume is set to 50%. No effects are turned on on the mixer...".

This helps all of us evaluate the setup and helps to pinpoint the problem area causing the muddiness.

 

[hernejj]

I've made some progress here. Despite my initial thoughts I don't think this actually has anything to do with velocity at all.

My normal setup that sounds muddy:
MoXF 1/4" Headphone out jack --> 1/4" to 2.5mm adapter --> 2.5mm cable --> Klipsch stereo amp --> Polk RTI bookshelf speakers & Klipsch 8" subwoofer

New setup that eliminates most (all?) of the muddiness:
MoXF 1/4" Headphone out jack --> 1/4" to 2.5mm adapter --> Sennheiser HD380 Pro headphones

I suspect using the headphone output to drive my amp is what is causing the problem... I have proper cabling on order so I can try feeding the amp from MoXF's line out instead of the headphone jack.

One other thing that helped was loading some freely available voice libraries (flash board NOT required)
http://bricksite.com/perskovgaard/yamaha-synth-voices

This guy's piano voices are truly amazing. Many are light years cleaner sounding than the stock Yamaha voices IMHO. It also adds a ton of variety and uniqueness to your piano collection. I highly recommend everyone thy these if you have compatible hardware (Montage, Motif, MO, MOX, MOXF).

So between these new voices and switching to headphones I am very happy with the sound I am getting out of my MoXF6. Now I just need to replicate the same sound through speakers so I can annoy the rest of my family when I play :-D!

 

[delaware dave]

Why are you going into your klipsch am from tue headphone jack out? Why not the line outs? Sounds like you are trying to bypass a mixer by gain staging out of your "hotter" signalled headphone jack. Try the line outs to a mixer to the klipsch. That's the proper way to gain stage and get a cleaner signal.

 

[hernejj]

Hi Dave, thanks for your reply. I am currently using the headphone out because I lack the proper cabling to go from 1/4" dual mono outputs (MoXF) to a 2.5mm stero-mini input (Klipsch amp). I've ordered an adapter and should have it tomorrow. I'm hopeful that switching to line out will solve my sound quality issue. I'll be sure to update this thread either way.

As for the mixer, I suspect I'll want to add one to my setup at some point. But for now, since I don't need to actually mix anything, I'm hoping I can live without it. If a mixer is required to boost the MoXF output signal level to a reasonable volume then I guess I'll be getting one sooner rather than later.

 

[hernejj]

Whatever the problem is, I've narrowed it down to my Klipsch amp.

MoXF line-out -> Klipsch Amp -> Polk Rti speakers = muddy sound
MoXF line-out -> Klipsch Amp -> HD380 headphones = muddy sound

MoXF headphone-out -> HD380 headphones = Good sound
MoXF line-out -> Yamaha PSR-EW400 line in = Good sound

So I'm able to get good sound in every scenario except where my Klipsch amp is used. The odd thing is this amp sounds fine when being fed from my computer. If the amp were the only issue here then I'd expect recordings of the MOXF (from Youtube videos) to exhibit a similar muddiness but they do not.

I might try the following tests to see what happens...
MoXF line-out -> PC Line In -> Klipsch Amp -> Polk Rti speakers
MoXF line-out -> Onkyo Amp -> Polk Rti floor-standing speakers
MoXF USB-out -> pc -> Klipsch Amp -> Polk Rti speakers

 

[delaware dave]

Sounds as though your Klipsch amp doesn't handle input from an instrument leveled source as well as when the source is non-instrument leveled (like your computer). If you have a friend that has a mixer you could try putting one in between the MoxF and the Klipsch as a test. I wouldn't invest in one just as an experiment unless it had a full return policy. Now you know where you source of angst is. I would be curious to know though if a mixer in between your MoxF and the Klipsch amp would solve your issue.

 

[hernejj]

I've nailed this problem. The Klipch Pro Media 2.1 amplifier applies a fairly large bass boost to the incoming signal. This is probably done either to compensate for a dip in the associated subwoofer's frequency response or just to "make it sound better". I can appreciate their reasoning but it would have been nice to have been given a button to disable that. This was not a cheap speaker set after all .

I figured this out by recording my MOXF via the USB interface and playing the recording back through my Klipsch amp. With both my Polk speakers and my Sennheiser headphones the sound was muddy and boomy primarily when playing lower notes. When I listened to the very same recording by plugging my Sennheisers directly into the computer everything was crystal clear.

I'm guessing I never noticed this when I was listening to other people play the MoXF via Youtube because they were never really focusing on the lower notes of the keyboard. I recently discovered that this was the primary area where I was dissatisfied with the sound.

Now that I know what the problem is, I guess my easy solution is to replace the amp with something a bit more neutral. I’m on the hunt for something…

- small-ish / stereo (not a massive home theater amp)
- Class-D/B/A/A+B/H, I guess class-T *might* be ok for this application..?
- 20 W ought to be more than enough ... That should give me 10-15 W of very clean power
- $50 - $100 price range would be nice.

Any recommendations?

I can find some matching products from Dayton, Lepai, and Pyle. But I’m having trouble finding anything from more reputable manufacturers. I’m not against Dayton, Lepai, and Pyle but I’d like to hear from some people that have used them as I have no experience with them.

 

[happyrat1]

What you're really looking for are a pair of powered studio monitors.

I'd recommend a pair of KRK Rockit 5 monitors but they'd blow your budget to smithereens.

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=rokit 5 speakers

If you're considering no name speakers, Amazon sells the Edifier line of powered bookshelf speakers

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_...crid=NPMFS1WHRE88&rh=i:aps,k:edifier+speakers

I own a pair of Edifier R1280T powered speakers I use for my TV set in my bedroom.

I'd recommend stepping up to the next model up if you want to be able to crank them up a bit with a keyboard.

If you find yourself missing the Bass response you are used to then you could add a Monoprice 8" Subwoofer for another $65.

https://www.amazon.com/Monoprice-10...527347891&sr=8-4&keywords=monoprice+subwoofer

Personally in my home studio I use the Monoprice sub along with a pair of M-Audio BX5a powered monitors and even though I never crank it up anywhere near full blast I get a clear and rich sound from my keys.

https://www.amazon.com/M-Audio-BX5-...527348069&sr=1-1-catcorr&keywords=m-audio+bx5

These would be a few of my recommendations for a decent sounding home studio.

Gary

 

[delaware dave]

Alternate suggestion: purchase a 16 or 32 band Eq, stick it in between the Mox and the Klipsch. The areas where it is boomy (excessive bass) back those levels down via the Eq to neutralize the excessive bass EQ of the amp. Might be cheaper and also allows you to customize the sound.

 

[HighlandStudio91]

I'm having trouble with a brand new Yamaha MoXF6 keyboard. All of the default piano sounds are muddy and muted. I am only able to make them sound good if I set the velocity response to Fixed with a velocity setting of 127. This is not an acceptable solution because I then must completely give up any kind of dynamic velocity. If I set the keyboard's velocity response setting to anything else (normal, soft, hard or wide) then everything sounds muddy again unless I hit the keys so hard I feel like I'm going to break the keyboard. I feel like something must be wrong with this instrument.

I've found a few forum posts where others have reported the same problem. All anyone ever says is that pressure sensitivity is a matter of preference. The problem I'm seeing cannot be a matter of technique or preference. I wish I knew someone with a MoXF6 and I could go try theirs out just to get a comparison. If this were common to all MOXF6 units then no one would be able to use this keyboard. I’m not being gentle on the thing and even with “soft” I still cannot produce a decent sound.

Does anyone have any suggestions?

Personally,I have a love/hate relationship with Yamaha.I had the MOX6 and I am sorry to say,the pianos are in fact,muddy.I didn't care for the audio quality of the USB interface either.I also hated the tiny screen and the tedious and convoluted menus/sub-menus.I did love the arpeggios,certain guitar sounds,drums and a few select acoustic instruments...but that's about it.
You may not want to read this,but honestly...I'd strongly suggest you upgrade and return your MOX6 to your retailer(if that is still an option)...or just sell it and accept the loss.Reason being,is that I've been researching heavily,the newer PSR-series(the S670 in particular)...and from everything I've read,along with everything I've seen and heard on YouTube,the PSR-S670 is a massive upgrade from the old MOX6 and it's $400 cheaper than what the MOX6 originally went for!I know this may seem ridiculous,but that is the beauty of advancing technology.Also....don't let the fact that the PSR is an arranger,dissuade you from considering it...because it's actually also a workstation(like the MOX6.)The only possible drawback to the PSR-S670,is that it doesn't seem to have as deep a level of editing features in the midi sequencer section(because I could not find any details,such as whether or not there is a copy & paste function.)Still though,there is nothing muddy sounding about the PSR-S670 and one of the most interesting features I think,is the ability to convert your renderings to a WAV file,via a USB stick.Another great feature,is that unlike the MOX6,the S670 has a much more intuitive menu layout,expandability for new sounds and the display screen is actually big enough to have a decent level of workflow.
In the past,I've always leaned towards straight up workstations(rather than arrangers,due to the higher cost...but actually,in my humble opinion,I think this is the most Yamaha has ever offered in a workstation,for the price.I've always hate fussing over price versus features in hardware(which is why I don't currently have any hardware at the moment)...and why I have bought so many workstation keyboards and then returned them or sold them...over the years....but in the case of the PSR-S670,I'm gonna pull the trigger on one,this up coming Friday.
Good luck,in whatever you decide to do,in your situation....

 

[mattskeys]

I'm having trouble with a brand new Yamaha MoXF6 keyboard. All of the default piano sounds are muddy and muted. I am only able to make them sound good if I set the velocity response to Fixed with a velocity setting of 127. This is not an acceptable solution because I then must completely give up any kind of dynamic velocity. If I set the keyboard's velocity response setting to anything else (normal, soft, hard or wide) then everything sounds muddy again unless I hit the keys so hard I feel like I'm going to break the keyboard. I feel like something must be wrong with this instrument.

I've found a few forum posts where others have reported the same problem. All anyone ever says is that pressure sensitivity is a matter of preference. The problem I'm seeing cannot be a matter of technique or preference. I wish I knew someone with a MoXF6 and I could go try theirs out just to get a comparison. If this were common to all MOXF6 units then no one would be able to use this keyboard. I’m not being gentle on the thing and even with “soft” I still cannot produce a decent sound.

Does anyone have any suggestions?

I have noticed this with a fellow musician's moxf. That being said you could try presonus Eris for $99 /pair and as others have suggested maybe a mono price sub or feed a line to home theatre setup for low end enhancement
...the closer you can get this sound where you want it without using eq, the better off you will be IMHO...
I have tried tons of mixers and they all color the sound on some way..rolls mixers have been fairly decent. I made the mistake of getting one of those denon mixers even w no eq it accentuated the bass...I hope that helps ...once you are close then you can eq some of the piano sounds inside moxf to really dial it in...I know I sound like captain obvious but that will help also cables do sound different but those are smaller changes
Matt

 

[trebleclef]

I have a Roland BK3 with only a headphone output. That also sounds like garbage when put through an amp. I just reckon headphone outputs are rubbish when it comes to external pa systems.

It sounds ok through its own speakers and also when I record to USB, but loses quality when plugged into amp.

I assumed that a keyboard from Roland, even a BOTL arranger would have lineouts. My own fault I suppose for not checking beforehand. Other manufacturers selling keyboards at lower prices put a lineout on the back.

 

[happyrat1]

The lower end Yamaha PSR models also don't have Line Outs. BUT, they are designed to use the Headphone Out as a line level driver with a menu item that switches the output.

Just for everyone's FYI, btw, Line Levels out are on the order of 10's of mV while headphones are typically 1 to 5 volts out and line impedances are also way out of whack.

Driving a line level keyboard or stereo amp with a headphone signal is a great way to fry the input stages of your amp

Check in your BK3's menus to see if they too have included a level switch for the headphone jacks somewhere in the menus before you fry your amp.

Gary

 

[carl aylward]

my solution is simple, i too do not like muddy ie midderly piano tones eg an actual real achostic piano to me sounds awfull, i like you prefer a much morer trebly sound, the best way to get the correct sound ive found is not actuarly booseting the treble but in fact cutting, quite heaverly, the middle at around 400 HZ to 600 HZ this should be very easy as all modern keyboards [ should ] have a grafic eq in there effects section/ or dedicatet tone controls, not familuar with your keyboard but my kronos 2 has dedicated, on front panel bass/mid - freq* level/treble, so i just cut the mid and get the sound i like. alternative ly if there is a grafic set it up as a "smile" curve and that will give you the sound you want, much more effective then just boosting the treble which hardly ever works, also this method also makes the bass notes sound better with more harmonics and percived depth. so try that, i only ever , personaly use pianos set like that, hope thats been of some helpok cheers

 

[carl aylward]

further to my first comment, just about all preprogramed piano sounds on synths are programed to [ to be like an achostic piano ] be what is refered to as muddy, and every one erronously think its to much bass, WRONG it to much MIDDLE, you need the very low bass for power and very high treble for bite, so you need to cut the middle, original achoustic grand pianos are by nature verey MIDDLY whicjh is a sound that i personaly do not like ,[ and it appears you share this taste ] i much prefer a tone adjusted piano, like it appears many others, like your self , also do. it has ABSOLUTLY NOTHING to do with amps/headfones/settings etc. its to do with the original samples wich sample a middly real acoustic piano, so as i surgested above, just cut out the MIDDLE and i can garranty , like me, you wont be dissapointed. ok cheers.

 

[carl aylward]

another note ive tone adjusted all the pianos as descibed above to all [5] of my keyboards and all sound absolutley wonderfull wethear through headphones or amplifiers [ pair of roland KC550s/ cheap-£20 phillips shp2000s/shp2500s- and i must recomend those headfones as ive compared them with big famous brands costing £150 and can honestly say that my - 6- philips headfones are way better- more bass & more treble response thaen those premium brands ] ok cheers