New piano voices for Kross?

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How good is the Grand Piano voice on the Kross88? I need it to be good enough to learn on & work with for quite a while. I have also researched some PC-based piano voices. Does anyone have experience with them; and how much better will they be than the Korg Grand Piano? How much does one need to spend to get a piano sound better than Kross?:

The ones I know about are:
1) ~$70: Pianissimo (standalone or part of Mixcraft Pro Studio 6)
2) $174.50: East West Quantum Leap Pianos Gold
3) $189: Synthogy Ivory II American Concert D
4) $245: East West Quantum Leap Pianos Platinum
5) $329: Synthogy Ivory II Grand Pianos
I'm quite sure there are many more to choose from. What are your opinions? Cost is a concern. I need a keyboard that has a good enough piano voice to keep me motivated to learn & grow. I think the piano voices on either the Krome or the Kronos would be more than adequate but they are not in my price range.

I viewed a recent YT faceoff between the Casio PX5s and the Kross, and the guy chose the Casio (pianomanchuck https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VfQw2LbI24 and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uK_L5cEKTcA). The Casio is on sale for $799, but I do not like the keybed action at all. Do I need a better piano voice than the Kross Grand?
 

SeaGtGruff

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As far as the Korg Kross 88's piano voice(s), you might be able to find a video or audio clip that includes a demo of that voice.

I don't know about options 2 through 5, but I have Mixcraft Pro Studio 6. I'm not much of a keyboardist, so I'll find a MIDI file that's suitable for a piano voice and play/record it using various piano voices from Mixcraft/Pianissimo, then post some audio clips for you to listen to.

Personally, if I were looking at buying either a standalone version of Pianissimo or a copy of Mixcraft Pro Studio 6 (which includes Pianissimo), I'd go with Mixcraft Pro Studio 6 because it's very reasonably-priced as DAWs go, plus you get several other virtual instruments. Also, if you were to get Pianissimo by itself and then later upgraded to Mixcraft, it would mean you'd essentially paid extra ahead of time for something that you get for free as part of Mixcraft.

But that's me. If you don't care about all the other virtual instrument voices, then a standalone version of Pianissimo might be all you need.

One thing you might want to be aware of is that Mixcraft is a 32-bit program. The upside of this is that you don't need a 64-bit computer system to run it-- it can run on either a 32-bit or 64-bit system. The downside is that you won't be able to use 64-bit VST plug-ins with it unless you use a 32-/64-bit bridge (which also works in the other direction-- it lets you use 32-bit plug-ins with a 64-bit DAW).
 
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As far as the Korg Kross 88's piano voice(s), you might be able to find a video or audio clip that includes a demo of that voice.

I don't know about options 2 through 5, but I have Mixcraft Pro Studio 6. I'm not much of a keyboardist, so I'll find a MIDI file that's suitable for a piano voice and play/record it using various piano voices from Mixcraft/Pianissimo, then post some audio clips for you to listen to.

Personally, if I were looking at buying either a standalone version of Pianissimo or a copy of Mixcraft Pro Studio 6 (which includes Pianissimo), I'd go with Mixcraft Pro Studio 6 because it's very reasonably-priced as DAWs go, plus you get several other virtual instruments. Also, if you were to get Pianissimo by itself and then later upgraded to Mixcraft, it would mean you'd essentially paid extra ahead of time for something that you get for free as part of Mixcraft.

But that's me. If you don't care about all the other virtual instrument voices, then a standalone version of Pianissimo might be all you need.

One thing you might want to be aware of is that Mixcraft is a 32-bit program. The upside of this is that you don't need a 64-bit computer system to run it-- it can run on either a 32-bit or 64-bit system. The downside is that you won't be able to use 64-bit VST plug-ins with it unless you use a 32-/64-bit bridge (which also works in the other direction-- it lets you use 32-bit plug-ins with a 64-bit DAW).

I have been looking intensely, seriously and very favorably at Mixcraft Pro Studio, so the stand-alone Pianissimo is not happening. I think almost all my PC's are 64-bit. I'm wondering whether everything will run ok with the 32-bit programs. I do know that the more expensive DAWs can go 64-bit, but I am not in that market at present.

Do you or anyone have any thoughts on Pianissimo vs. the Korg Kross voices?
 

SeaGtGruff

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Regarding Mixcraft and 32 bits versus 64 bits, I also have a 64-bit computer, so I have a mixture of 32-bit and 64-bit VST instruments that I've downloaded. I haven't noticed any issues with running Mixcraft-- there's nothing "bad" or "wrong" with running 32-bit programs on a 64-bit computer, unlike the opposite situation (i.e., a 64-bit program can't run on a 32-bit computer).

Note, I also have a copy of Ableton Live Lite 8 that came free with my M-Audio Axiom 61-II MIDI keyboard controller, and it's available in both versions-- 32 bits and 64 bits. I had the 32-bit version on my old 32-bit computer, but when I got a 64-bit computer I installed the 64-bit version on it. You might want to read what Ableton has to say about whether people should use the 32-bit or 64-bit version of Live:

https://www.ableton.com/en/articles/64bit-myths-facts/

The gist of what they say is summarized at the very beginning: "We recommend using the 32-bit version of Live for most use cases. The 64-bit version should be used when experiencing out of memory crashes on systems which have more than 4GB RAM installed." Note that when they say they recommend using the 32-bit version, they're talking about on a 64-bit computer.

Back to Mixcraft, I'm under the impression that it's something of a "light-weight" DAW, by which I mean it might not have all of the bells, whistles, and uber-cool features of the big-name commercial DAWs that can cost several hundreds of dollars (depending on which edition you get-- but if we're talking about the "Pro Studio" edition of Mixcraft, then it seems only fair that it should be compared price-wise to the "fullest-featured" editions of the other DAWs, and they can be pretty expensive). However, I don't have any of the other big-name commercial DAWs-- although I do have the free editions of a few commercial DAWs (PreSonus Studio One 2, Sony ACID Xpress 7.0, and Zynewave Podium)-- so I can't really say from experience how favorably Mixcraft compares to the "big boys." All I can say is it's easy to use and does almost everything I need it to-- my only real complaints are that it ignores all incoming "SysEx" MIDI events (so it can't record them), and there's no way to insert SysEx events; and I haven't been able to figure out if it's possible to create an instrument definition file for a keyboard's "patches" (i.e., its available voices and which Bank Select MSB/LSB and Program Change settings are used to select each voice). I also had trouble adding third-party VST plug-ins-- I couldn't get the procedure described in the Help manual to work-- but I figured out a way to do it on my own, so I'm happy. As for the MIDI SysEx events, I tend to jump back and forth between different DAWs depending on what I'm doing, and I have some free DAWs that do let me record, edit, and insert SysEx events, so I don't really care too much that Mixcraft doesn't.

I tried to attach two zipped archives, but they're too big, so I'll have to email them to you.

The archive named "Mixcraft Instruments.zip" contains several images showing Mixcraft's main list of instruments, in particular the piano voices, plus some screenshots of Pianissimo showing its available presets and controls. You can create new Pianissimo presets by setting the controls however you wish and then saving the settings under a name of your choice.

The archive named "Morning.zip" contains three recordings of the same song, using two of Mixcraft's piano voices and one of Pianissimo's. The two Mixcraft voices actually sound the same to me, but the file sizes are different so I guess they must not be identical.

If you're interested in any of the other piano voices shown in the image files, just let me know which ones and I'll record the song with those voices and send them to you.

A quick note about the song-- it isn't me playing, it's a MIDI file I found online. I made two changes-- (1) I changed all of the tracks to MIDI program 0 (acoustic grand piano), and (2) I removed the second verse. One of the tracks was meant to be played by a cello voice, and that track seems kind of loud, so maybe I should have removed it so the other tracks can be heard more clearly. If you want me to do that, let me know.
 
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Regarding Mixcraft and 32 bits versus 64 bits; read what Ableton has to say about whether people should use the 32-bit or 64-bit version of Live:

https://www.ableton.com/en/articles/64bit-myths-facts/

The gist of what they say is summarized at the very beginning: "We recommend using the 32-bit version of Live for most use cases. The 64-bit version should be used when experiencing out of memory crashes on systems which have more than 4GB RAM installed." Note that when they say they recommend using the 32-bit version, they're talking about on a 64-bit computer.

All I can say is it's easy to use and does almost everything I need it to-- my only real complaints are that it ignores all incoming "SysEx" MIDI events (so it can't record them), and there's no way to insert SysEx events; and I haven't been able to figure out if it's possible to create an instrument definition file for a keyboard's "patches" (i.e., its available voices and which Bank Select MSB/LSB and Program Change settings are used to select each voice). I also had trouble adding third-party VST plug-ins-- I couldn't get the procedure described in the Help manual to work-- but I figured out a way to do it on my own, so I'm happy. As for the MIDI SysEx events, I tend to jump back and forth between different DAWs depending on what I'm doing, and I have some free DAWs that do let me record, edit, and insert SysEx events, so I don't really care too much that Mixcraft doesn't.

I tried to attach two zipped archives, but they're too big, so I'll have to email them to you.

The archive named "Mixcraft Instruments.zip" contains several images showing Mixcraft's main list of instruments, in particular the piano voices, plus some screenshots of Pianissimo showing its available presets and controls. You can create new Pianissimo presets by setting the controls however you wish and then saving the settings under a name of your choice.

The archive named "Morning.zip" contains three recordings of the same song, using two of Mixcraft's piano voices and one of Pianissimo's. The two Mixcraft voices actually sound the same to me, but the file sizes are different so I guess they must not be identical.

If you're interested in any of the other piano voices shown in the image files, just let me know which ones and I'll record the song with those voices and send them to you.

A quick note about the song-- it isn't me playing, it's a MIDI file I found online. I made two changes-- (1) I changed all of the tracks to MIDI program 0 (acoustic grand piano), and (2) I removed the second verse. One of the tracks was meant to be played by a cello voice, and that track seems kind of loud, so maybe I should have removed it so the other tracks can be heard more clearly. If you want me to do that, let me know.

I have no idea what SysEx-MIDI commands are. Do they represent a big part of MIDI, or is it something I don't need? I need to be able to play my MIDI keyboard through Mixcraft, record that, then change the voices, shape the notes, etc. Mixcraft should be able to decode the pitch, loudness, and any octave changes I've made. Also, I need the Pianissimo voice to work with the MIDI kKB; and perhaps to have the Korg Kross voices available within Mixcraft. Can I do all this without SYSEX?

IOW, what does SysEX do?
 
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Does this help Thomas?

http://en.audiofanzine.com/korg/kross/editorial/reviews/entry-level-redefined.html

Gives you a review of the Kross and there is a demo of the piano sounds included. There's also one in my local music shop - I'll give it a bash next time I'm in the store and let you know my opinion of it. It looks a very slick machine for the price, I must say.

Cheers!
You'll have to excuse me if I don't 'show up' for your eval! LOL Thanks for the assist!
 

SeaGtGruff

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what does SysEX do?

"SysEx" is short for "System Exclusive," which pretty much summarizes what SysEx messages are-- messages that are exclusive to a particular system. Manufacturers can create their own sets of SysEx messages for their various lines of keyboards or other MIDI-compatible products.

Thus, a Yamaha keyboard will generally understand and be able to respond to Yamaha's SysEx messages, but it might not use all of them since different models may have their own set or subset of SysEx messages. Likewise, Roland and Korg and Casio and other manufacturers have their own sets of SysEx messages.

Sometimes one manufacturer will program their products to be able to recognize and respond to some of the SysEx messages from another manufacturer-- i.e., there's no rule that says Casio can't allow their keyboards to use Yamaha's SysEx commands and vice versa-- but each manufacturer creates their own SysEx commands (e.g., Yamaha can't create a "Casio SysEx" command, and Casio can't create a "Roland SysEx" command, etc.).

So SysEx commands are generally used for features or abilities that aren't covered by standard MIDI messages and that are more or less unique to a particular brand. If you're thinking of buying a specific keyboard, you might want to download the owner's manual and other documents-- especially the MIDI guide if there is one-- and see what sorts of SysEx and other MIDI commands that particular keyboard uses.

Note that standard MIDI messages are fairly comprehensive-- not only do they include the ability to play selected notes at particular volumes ("velocities"), they also let you select which "patch" or instrument sound to use (i.e., the Bank and Program), plus setting/using other common parameters/features such as Reverb, Chorus, Attack, Decay, Cutoff, Resonance, Pitch Bend, Modulation, Portamento, Pan, Volume, Aftertouch, etc. Consequently, you should be able to do just about anything you'd need or want to do using standard MIDI commands, without having to resort to using SysEx commands.

However, if your DAW (Mixcraft or whichever one you eventually buy) doesn't support the use of SysEx commands, and for some reason you really need to use them, there are free programs (DAWs or MIDI editors) that let you do that. So you can use Mixcraft (or whatever) for the 95% (or whatever) of your work that doesn't require any SysEx commands, and use a free program for the other 5% (or whatever) that does require SysEx commands.

Of course, it can also depend on what you want to do with the DAW. Some DAWs seem to be slanted mostly towards recording music, while others seem to be slanted very heavily towards controlling instruments or triggering loops during live performances. Mixcraft is more for recording music, but you can also use it to control keyboards during a performance, although the inability to use SysEx commands might mean there could be certain features or settings you can't control on a keyboard using Mixcraft. On the other hand, you can often program those features or settings on the keyboard itself and save them for later recall by pressing a button or two on the keyboard, so you might not need to control them from Mixcraft. But if you're specifically looking for a DAW that's heavily slanted toward live performance control, you might want to look at something like Ableton Live (which is much more expensive than Mixcraft).
 
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Does this help Thomas?

http://en.audiofanzine.com/korg/kross/editorial/reviews/entry-level-redefined.html

Gives you a review of the Kross and there is a demo of the piano sounds included. There's also one in my local music shop - I'll give it a bash next time I'm in the store and let you know my opinion of it. It looks a very slick machine for the price, I must say.

Cheers!
That is the most comprehensive review of the Korg Kross I've seen. Thanks so much for your post!!!!!!
 
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Hi Thomas,

I auditioned the Kross for you today. My local store has an 88 key Kronos, Krome and Kross all next to each other, so it was a fantastic opportunity to compare them.

My verdict - the Kross piano sounds hold up very well indeed against the Krome. There are a range of pianos in the Kross, and they all sound quite nice to my ear. I certainly would have no issue using this keyboard for piano sounds on a regular basis. The Kronos is in another league again but I'm sure you would have expected that.

Interestingly, I would have assumed the action on all three keyboards would be identical, but I have to say the Kronos was noticeably superior to the Krome and Kross. The Kronos felt much more "grand piano", than the other two, which felt a bit on the heavy side. I found playing fast licks and runs on the Kross a little more challenging than I would have liked.

All in all though, given the very cheap price, the Kross is definitely a winner in my book.

Cheers,

Paul
 
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Hi Thomas,

I auditioned the Kross for you today. My local store has an 88 key Kronos, Krome and Kross all next to each other, so it was a fantastic opportunity to compare them.

My verdict - the Kross piano sounds hold up very well indeed against the Krome. There are a range of pianos in the Kross, and they all sound quite nice to my ear. I certainly would have no issue using this keyboard for piano sounds on a regular basis. The Kronos is in another league again but I'm sure you would have expected that.

Interestingly, I would have assumed the action on all three keyboards would be identical, but I have to say the Kronos was noticeably superior to the Krome and Kross. The Kronos felt much more "grand piano", than the other two, which felt a bit on the heavy side. I found playing fast licks and runs on the Kross a little more challenging than I would have liked.

All in all though, given the very cheap price, the Kross is definitely a winner in my book.

Cheers,

Paul

Thanks again, Paul! I also just yesterday, went to another local store and did some evaluations myself. I was (also) surprised to discover a difference between the Kross and Krome keybeds. I did not look at the Kronos; but I thought that Kronos and Krome sounds were supposed to be the same. I also thought that the Kross keybed action was 'different'. I compared keybed actions of Kross to those of the Casio PX-350, PX5s and the Roland FA-08. These latter three actions all seemed the same to me, but Kross was very slightly mushy, and perhaps lacked some of the others' keys' momentum. Sound-wise, I agree -- I am not hearing deficiency in the Kross voices that would limit my ability to learn.

The sample Krome I 'played' (I did this with the volume control set to minimum) seemed to have a tinny key sound. No other keyboard I played exhibited this. Although out of my price range, I liked the Roland FA-08 -- except that it does not seem to have the ability to access saved sounds -- like for a presentation. Even the guy I watched on YT was fiddling with the selector dial to change sounds! This is ridiculous! I perused the .PDF manual in hope that those "pads" could also select sounds, but it appears not! Well, they 'could' perhaps with a simple firmware fix. But I digress.

I'm still considering the Kross and the Casio PX5s to the exclusion of others. Are there others you would recommend: (88-weighted keys, great sounds, etc. ?) The Casio seems difficult to change sounds and navigate, does not have a sequencer, does not have 3-pedal inputs. The Kross seems to have everything, except perhaps the integrity of its sounds, and a slightly less-than-the-others' keybed quality. For the ultimate tool (first real keyboard) for me to learn piano, it would seem the Casio the better choice. Fun-Factor points me to the Kross. Note: I also have an older Casio CTK-731 61-key keyboard with somewhat inferior sounds and only touch-sensitive keys -- but it does have MIDI, and a sequencer -- so perhaps some of the Kross 'fun-factor' could be derived from that unit. (?) No, I never learned to play on it -- it has been in it's box for a very long time, until recently.

Thoughts? How would you evaluate the Kross keybed -- is it good enough to learn on? How important is having a sequencer? How important is it to have all three pedal inputs? Sounds of the Casio might be slightly better than Kross. Navigation on the Casio can be learned; the Kross keybed will likely always be like that. How would you feel about Stage Piano vs. Workstation for a beginner trying to learn? How would you prioritize these issues? (Yes, I over-analyze things! More so now with less money to spend)
 
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G'day Thomas,

Just to be clear, I could not detect any difference in the keybed between the 88 key Kross or 88 key Krome that I played. The Kronos WAS different, and (to me) superior, as I outlined above. But this is a much more expensive keyboard in a completely different neighbourhood to the Kross.

Sound quality tends to be a personal thing, so go with what your ears tell you.

To answer your questions: Yes I would consider the Kross 88-key keybed good enough to learn on. Pedal inputs/sequencer - only you can answer that question. If you feel you will use these features now or in the future, then they're important, if not, then they're not. Stage Piano v Workstation - depends what you're trying to learn. If it is simply to play the keys well, makes no difference, you could learn on your grandma's upright. If in time you want to move more deeply into patch editing, sequencing, recording, sound design, then the workstation is the go.

Hope that helps mate.

Cheers,

Paul
 

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Just to add my own $0.02 and muddy the waters a bit.

The Casio PX-5S does lack a sequencer but that can be easily overcome by hooking it up to a Computer DAW and likewise the Casio comes with free downloadable patch editing software to make your life a lot easier.

If my old Korg TR76 was any indicator the only software you'll find for a Korg is the buggy, expensive and useless crap produced by Soundtower, a third party software developer.

Also the support and free patches over at http://casiomusicforums.com is far more user friendly and easier to deal with than the rabid fanboys over at the korgforums.

Casio has been heavily promoting and supporting the XW and PX-5S lines on youtube these days with loads of detailed video tutorials and more coming out every day.

From what I remember, I was pretty much on my own when it came to finding support for my TR76 back in my Korg Days.

As for the pedals, you can add a MIDI volume pedal to make up for the lack of an expression pedal on the PX-5S.

Gary
 

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