Roland PC-200 mkii to Korg TR Rack - Bank Select?

[hugovictorious]

Hello all, I simply want to send a MIDI message from the Roland PC-200 mkii MIDI Controller directly to the Korg TR Rack Sound Module to select a Bank and then a Program within that Bank. Only thing I can get it to do is select a Program from Bank A. How do I access Banks B, C, and D using only the Roland as input?

For example, in order to choose Program 124 from the Bank B, I'm pushing on the Roland: [Midi/Select] - [CC00] - "0" - [CC32] - "1" - [PG] - "125" - [Enter] - [Midi/Select] but the Korg stays in Bank A. It does select Program 124, so I know it's receiving the Program Select message, but not the Bank Select message. Does it have anything to do with Roland using "GS Format" and Korg using something else?

Thanks in advance!

 

[SeaGtGruff]

Do you have the TR-Rack's MIDI filters set to enable reception of both Program Change and Bank Select messages?

 

[hugovictorious]

Yes. On the Korg, Page 8 of Global settings "MIDI Filter" All 3 options (Exclusive, A.T. and Control) are enabled. I wonder if I'm inputting the right values?

 

[happyrat1]

There are multiple Bank Select Types, 3 or 4 in total I think. I know this from working with Cakewalk and writing INS files all these years.

While I have no inclination to research which types your individual gear might be using or might be incompatible with, but I'd strongly suggest pursuing your search in that direction.

See if Bank Select Method is an option on either instrument and if so see if they are compatible with each other. This is sometimes an option on higher end gear and you might get lucky.

Gary

 

[hugovictorious]

There are multiple Bank Select Types, 3 or 4 in total I think. I know this from working with Cakewalk and writing INS files all these years.

While I have no inclination to research which types your individual gear might be using or might be incompatible with, but I'd strongly suggest pursuing your search in that direction.

See if Bank Select Method is an option on either instrument and if so see if they are compatible with each other. This is sometimes an option on higher end gear and you might get lucky.

Gary

I appreciate you nudging me in this direction. I think it may be as I suspected: an incompatibility of bank select method. I found this over at Electronic Music Wiki: "Unfortunately, some manufacturers started using the bank select message before it was officially added to the MIDI standard, and so some early-1990s synths can be found which don’t do bank select properly because, although they recognize the message, they require a non-standard format. Some sequencers have the ability to generate bank select messages in different formats to accommodate this." My Roland is from the 90's and the Korg is from '98.

 

[SeaGtGruff]

According to the manual, the TR-Track uses the standard MSB, LSB, PGM method, and the Banks are chosen with MSB=0 and LSBs of 0 to 3 (see page 22), so the values you listed should select Bank B-- although I haven't looked at the Roland's manual to see if you're entering the PGM correctly on the Roland by adding 1 to the desired number.

I haven't studied the Korg's manual carefully yet, but it sounds like it has different modes, and perhaps only one of them (Combination Play mode) uses the Bank Select and Program Change? The others look like they might use just the Program Change, but I'm not sure about this.

 

[hugovictorious]

According to the manual, the TR-Track uses the standard MSB, LSB, PGM method, and the Banks are chosen with MSB=0 and LSBs of 0 to 3 (see page 22), so the values you listed should select Bank B-- although I haven't looked at the Roland's manual to see if you're entering the PGM correctly on the Roland by adding 1 to the desired number.

I haven't studied the Korg's manual carefully yet, but it sounds like it has different modes, and perhaps only one of them (Combination Play mode) uses the Bank Select and Program Change? The others look like they might use just the Program Change, but I'm not sure about this.

Thanks for taking the time to look up the manual! You are now where I was when I began the thread. I feel like it *should* work as I indicated. The program change does indeed take place - yes, adding 1 is necessary - but bank doesn't change. I'm sure the Roland's cc00 and cc32 keys work because they play actual notes in play mode.

Now I just tried it in combination play mode with the same button sequences on the Roland MIDI cotroller, and same result: program change takes place but stays in the same bank. And just to clarify, I can change banks by physically pushing buttons on the Korg. So if I select the C bank from the Korg, any program changes remain in that bank.

I can only think of 3 reasons:
1. Roland bank select method is incompatible with Korg's bank select
2. I'm doing something wrong.
3. The Roland or Korg are defective.

I know there are workarounds, but it's the WHY? that's bugging me. Thanks for your time. Perhaps I should post on the Korg thread?

 

[SeaGtGruff]

The only thing I can think of is that it might be the MIDI filter settings on the Korg, as I already mentioned.

One problem I have with older manuals such as these for the Roland and Korg is that they're images of each page, so there's no way to use the Find function to easily search for a specific word or phrase within the PDF manual. It's necessary to search the old-fashioned way-- with one's eyeballs. The Table of Contents helps, but I find it easier to visually search manuals such as these if they're printed on paper, and I haven't printed them out yet.

Anyway, it looks like there might be a couple of different places in the settings where you may need to check the MIDI filters to see if they're telling the Korg to ignore the Bank Select messages. Bank Select is a Control Change, so you might also need to enable those messages in addition to the settings that specifically enable Bank Select, even though the descriptions for the Control Change filters don't mention Bank Select.

Finally, I can't imagine why the Roland wouldn't be sending standard Bank Select messages; in fact, I'm not sure I know what a "non-standard" Bank Select message even looks like. I always thought any reference to different Bank Select "standards" was talking about how some manufacturers like to set the MSB to 0 and then use different LSBs to select banks, while other manufacturers like to set the LSB to 0 and then use different MSBs to select banks; but as long as you're sending both MSB and LSB, and are correctly choosing values specified in the Korg's manual-- which you are-- then I don't know why or how the Bank Select messages coming from the Roland could be "bad."

The only suggestions I can think of, aside from thoroughly double-checking the Korg's MIDI filter settings, are to check whether the Roland has any MIDI filter settings which affect the types of messages that it transmits; check to see if the Roland expects you to add 1 to the Bank Select values (which is something I've only ever seen before in the Ableton Live DAW, but I wouldn't rule it out); and try connecting the Roland to a computer so you can monitor the MIDI messages it's sending for the Bank Select.

 

[happyrat1]

I believe the three types of Bank Select supported in the MIDI standard are Normal, Ctrlr-0 and Ctrlr-32.

I have differing gear that uses a couple of those methods and though I've never tried it I'd imagine those beasties wouldn't talk to each other either.

My Kurzweil PC3K allows me to switch between types, which also makes it a fantastic controller.

Gary

 

[SeaGtGruff]

Right, that confirms my understanding of what I thought you'd meant-- "normal" meaning both the MSB and the LSB, versus the two that use only the MSB or the LSB but not both.

However, if the Roland has buttons for both the MSB and the LSB, and the Korg manual shows the values needed for both the MSB and the LSB, I'd think they both use the "normal" method and shouldn't have any trouble on that account-- as long as there are no MIDI message filters getting in the way.

 

[happyrat1]

I just looked at the Cakewalk INS file for the Korg TR. It's listed as Type Zero which is Normal, MSB/LSB.

Unfortunately there is no listing for his particular Roland but my Juno DS INS file works with Bankselect method 1 which is I believe Ctrilr 0.

Typically I've found with all the Roland gear I've owned in the past it tends to be a mix among models but more often than not It's Ctrilr 0 or 32.

Unless he has the provision to alter the BankSelectMethod in either unit then this will never work out for him.

Gary

 

[SeaGtGruff]

The Roland's manual specifically states that it can send both Bank Select bytes, CC#0 and CC#32, so it should work as desired. The only thing further I can suggest is to use a MIDI monitor to verify what the Roland is sending.