Roland, Yamaha, MIDI and the Tower of Babel

[gswetsky]

Well, from the title, you should know what this is all about........

Recently, I purchased a Roland VR-09B to keep my ancient Roland Juno 2 company. The VR-09 has an excellent Hammond organ emulation and using the Juno 2 and MIDI, I can add a second keyboard manual to the VR-09. Neat! Now I have a Hammond B3! Add an app running on my computer, I can control the drawbars on each manual separately. I'm in heaven!

Fast forward - I recently bought a Yamaha P-125 for a friend of mine. Over the recent weeks, I fell in love with the P-125 and thought maybe I'd retire the Juno 2 and put a P-125 in my rack. Okay, now you're way ahead of me. I'm in love with a keyboard that would be of no use to me as it doesn't speak MIDI. I wrote Yamaha and received a terse reply saying there was no way to connect the two keyboards.

So here we are scrapping a protocol though, not perfect. was at least able to connect Kawai, Casio, Roland, Yamaha and other keyboards together. Apparently everyone is intent in developing their own "operating system" which connected to a Mac or a Windows computer via USB, does all sorts of neat stuff.

Okay, so much for the rant. Is there any way short of a tape recorder that I can use to use a P-125 as a second keyboard to drive my Roland VR-09B?

 

[happyrat1]

You can still use a computer to route the MIDI between the two keyboards. Pain in the ass if you are gigging, but ok for a studio setup.

Just do a google search for MIDI Routing Software on Google and a few free ones will pop up.

Gary

 

[gswetsky]

Thanks, Gary,

That would seem to indicate that the USB protocols on the Roland and Yamaha keyboards are the same and from a hardware standpoint this requires two USB cables. Am I not correct? I notice there are hardware boxes on the market with 5 pin DIN in and out and also a USB connector. Wouldn't these serve the same purpose and eliminate the need for a computer? (My VR-09 has MIDI jacks as well as a USB connector).

My desktop computer has about 12 USB cables in use already and I don't know that there are any more jacks available.

Gerry

 

[happyrat1]

First of all, unplug something. Don't use a hub.

Secondly, you can connect any keyboard or MIDI instrument to a computer either using a USB/MIDI Adapter if it only has DIN MIDI Ports or thru USB MIDI if it only has a USB port. If it has both then flip a coin

You may have to install drivers for the boards though if they're not Plug n Play USB MIDI Class compliant. If they are then no drivers needed. They are already built into most operating systems.

Yamaha has a nasty habit of veering away from the standard on a regular basis.

I despise Yamaha...

Gary

 

[happyrat1]

BTW, something has to act between the two keyboards as an intelligent MIDI host. Usually it's a computer. If you buy a dedicated USB MIDI Host adapter then it will ONLY work if the devices are class compliant.

Much simpler to use a computer in most cases.

Gary

 

[Biggles]

If you are still within the return period perhaps you would be better served returning the P125 and then purchasing a DP with better MIDI connectivity and implementation.

The P125 is after all intended as a starter digital piano for Home use.

I have a P121 (73 keys) and it works great when connected to my iPad where I use the Apps there, I certainly would not consider it for anything else.

 

[gswetsky]

First of all, thank you all for the replies. I haven't yet purchased a P-125 except the one I bought for my friend. He picked it out because it had the most realistic grand piano sound and I agreed. My VR-09 has one of the poorest.

One of the comments that Yamaha said in their reply to me was, "It (the P-125) will not connect to another instrument." I'm holding off buying anything until someone in one of the local stores can demonstrate the P-125 or something similar being used as a controller. I'm in no hurry.

Gerry

 

[anotherscott]

I'm in love with a keyboard that would be of no use to me as it doesn't speak MIDI. I wrote Yamaha and received a terse reply saying there was no way to connect the two keyboards.

So here we are scrapping a protocol though, not perfect. was at least able to connect Kawai, Casio, Roland, Yamaha and other keyboards together. Apparently everyone is intent in developing their own "operating system" which connected to a Mac or a Windows computer via USB, does all sorts of neat stuff.

The P-125 speaks MIDI perfectly well, it fully supports the protocol, but like a lot of low cost boards today, they don't include the standard MIDI connector, so if you don't want to connect both keyboards to the computer, you'd have to use an adapter, like one of the ones mentioned at http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/2959758/ - note that it does have to be this kind of adapter that functions as a USB host, and not the (more common and generally cheaper) ones that do the reverse of what you want, i.e. allow a computer to talk to a keyboard that has ONLY the 5-pin MIDI ports and NOT the USB connection.

But you can also connect the P125 to the same computer, and now your Roland and Yamaha will be able to speak to each other. You don't need an adapter in that case, because in effect the computer is the adapter.

Alternatively, instead of the P125, select a low-cost model that has a 5-pin MIDI port, like the Kawai ES110 or the Kurzweil SP1.

 

[happyrat1]

There are better choices than a cheap Yamaha piano anyway. Save up a few more pennies and and buy a Roland Juno DS88 or a Korg Kross 88 this winter. I own a DS88 and the keyboard is pretty sweet.

Gary

 

[anotherscott]

p.s. -- there are SOME keyboards that allow the direct connection of another keyboard via USB, but these are the exception rather than the rule, and your VR09 is not among them. For the most part, 5-pin MIDI is what you use to connect boards to each other (a peer-to-peer connection). USB requires separate slaves and hosts, you cannot connect one slave to another slave, there needs to be a host, and only a handful of keyboards with USB can also act as hosts. This is not a MIDI compatibility issue, it's just the way USB works. That's why your choices are either to connect the P125 and the VR09 to the computer (a host), or an interface designed for this purpose (also a host), or choose a different piano board that has a standard 5-pin MIDI Out port.

If you want an alternative to the P-125 that can connect directly, I mentioned the ES110 and SP1, Gary mentioned the DS88 and Kross, and there are many others. It's a matter of what you're looking for. Do you care about internal speakers? Low travel weight? Compact size? Do you care about using any of its internal sounds besides piano? Is there a strict budget? Does it have to be a current model or would you consider something used?

 

[gswetsky]

I bought a friend a P-125 and since have fallen in love with it. Considering my (lack of) talent, spending any more money on a keyboard would be a waste. I especially like that the Yamaha is oriented toward the student, with its built in melodies including the ability to adjust the speed and mute the left or right hand. The ability to display the score as it plays too. That's just the beginning.

However, a prime requirement is being to add a second manual to the Roland's Hammond organ voice which is what I'm doing now with my Roland Juno 2. I asked Yamaha via email about using the USB connector to connect two keyboards and their answer was as much as, "It can't be done. Goodbye". So much for Yamaha tech support! Right now, I'm waiting for a reply from a person who creates hardware and software to do exactly what "can't be done".

Thanks for the reply,
Gerry

 

[anotherscott]

I bought a friend a P-125 and since have fallen in love with it. Considering my (lack of) talent, spending any more money on a keyboard would be a waste.

Okay, so we have a budget...

especially like that the Yamaha is oriented toward the student, with its built in melodies including the ability to adjust the speed and mute the left or right hand. The ability to display the score as it plays too. That's just the beginning.

interesting... The P-125 doesn't have all those features built in (e.g. no display), are you connecting to an iPhone/iPad or something? Assuming you are, that can probably take care of the USB host problem as well. Yamaha has made other, older versions of the P-125 that had the same action but also had the MIDI port for direct connection to your Roland... but those older models won't have the app features you want.

I asked Yamaha via email about using the USB connector to connect two keyboards and their answer was as much as, "It can't be done. Goodbye". So much for Yamaha tech support!

They are correct that you can not DIRECTLY connect the two keyboards. And Yamaha tech support only knows about Yamaha products, and they don't make any product to get around that, and those host devices I mentioned are not that common, so I'm not so surprised that they did not suggest it. And really, USB-only keyboards were not originally designed to be ABLE to work directly with another keyboard (because of the way USB itself is designed), but companies figured out how to do it anyway. So any of these host adapters should work...

Amazon.com: midiplus (USB MIDI Host): Musical Instruments

Buy midiplus (USB MIDI Host): MIDI Controllers - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases

www.amazon.com

http://www.kentonuk.com/products/items/utilities/usb-host.shtml

https://www.excelvalley.com/product/midi-usb-din-converter/

http://compasflamenco.com/midi-c-3/usb-host-midi-2-p-6.html

https://www.juno.co.uk/products/mode-machines-cerebel-usb-to-midi-serial/564328-01/

https://www.thomann.de/gb/miditech_usb_midi_host.htm

Or an iPhone/iPad or Mac/Windows computer.

Since you're in the U.S., I'd try the one from Amazon since it's easy to return if there's any issue. It might be that easy to solve your problem, though.

 

[Biggles]

New

Yamaha P125 is c$650

Roland Juno DS 88 is $1100

Whilst I have 73 key version of the P125 the best I can say about it is the piano sounds are good, electric piano are OK, organs well that button is hardly used, strings are cheesey and the voice sounds like someone being throttled. The keybed itself is not the best out there imo the Roland easily has a better feel with its escapement feature that is incorporated with the FP30.

You seem hung up on a keyboard that is aimed purely at the hobbyist market

Save up some more and get a better keyboard.

As it is I only bought my Yamaha as a stop gap as it is cheap and functional.

 

[anotherscott]

Biggles, it sounds to me like he is basically happy with the sounds he already has (in his VR09), except for the piano (note his comments about "realistic grand piano sound...My VR-09 has one of the poorest."), so other sounds aren't necessarily of concern, and you yourself agree that in the P125 "the piano sounds are good." You talk about how bad its organ and strings are, but he has the VR-09 for that, and intends to MIDI this new board to the VR09 regardless. In fact, MIDI-ing it to use as a lower manual organ for the VR09 is one of his main goals here, it's the issue that prompted the thread in the first place.

As for his being "hung up on a keyboard that is aimed purely at the hobbyist market," maybe he is actually a hobbyist! Note also his interest in something aimed "toward the student, with its built in melodies including the ability to adjust the speed...The ability to display the score as it plays too" (I assume that's with one of Yamaha's companion apps, unless he got the model # wrong and it's a DGX660 which I think does those things on its built in screen).

He says he can't justify spending more, and the suggested Juno DS is not just more, it's considerably more. Moreover, for his stated purposes, the Juno DS may even be worse except for having a MIDI jack. I'm not sure the Juno DS piano sound is as good as the one in the P125 (or even any better than what's in the VR09), and its heavier feeling action may make it less pleasant to use as a lower manual organ for his VR09, and it doesn't come with any kind of student apps (though I guess you could buy some of those kinds of things separately). I think you're trying to solve problems he doesn't necessarily have and not paying enough attention to what he actually wants. I'm not saying it's not worth looking at options, and maybe he would actually prefer the sound/feel of some other model if he tried it, and maybe he can get student apps for whatever he buys, but he has a budget, and for his stated needs, I don't see any need to blow far past it, especially for something that may not even be as good for the things he most cares about.

 

[Biggles]

Biggles, it sounds to me like he is basically happy with the sounds he already has (in his VR09), except for the piano (note his comments about "realistic grand piano sound...My VR-09 has one of the poorest."), so other sounds aren't necessarily of concern, and you yourself agree that in the P125 "the piano sounds are good." You talk about how bad its organ and strings are, but he has the VR-09 for that, and intends to MIDI this new board to the VR09 regardless. In fact, MIDI-ing it to use as a lower manual organ for the VR09 is one of his main goals here, it's the issue that prompted the thread in the first place.

As for his being "hung up on a keyboard that is aimed purely at the hobbyist market," maybe he is actually a hobbyist! Note also his interest in something aimed "toward the student, with its built in melodies including the ability to adjust the speed...The ability to display the score as it plays too" (I assume that's with one of Yamaha's companion apps, unless he got the model # wrong and it's a DGX660 which I think does those things on its built in screen).

He says he can't justify spending more, and the suggested Juno DS is not just more, it's considerably more. Moreover, for his stated purposes, the Juno DS may even be worse except for having a MIDI jack. I'm not sure the Juno DS piano sound is as good as the one in the P125 (or even any better than what's in the VR09), and its heavier feeling action may make it less pleasant to use as a lower manual organ for his VR09, and it doesn't come with any kind of student apps (though I guess you could buy some of those kinds of things separately). I think you're trying to solve problems he doesn't necessarily have and not paying enough attention to what he actually wants. I'm not saying it's not worth looking at options, and maybe he would actually prefer the sound/feel of some other model if he tried it, and maybe he can get student apps for whatever he buys, but he has a budget, and for his stated needs, I don't see any need to blow far past it, especially for something that may not even be as good for the things he most cares about.

Not at all Scott, questioning their logic and do not wish to see them buy something in haste and regret it later.

I have had my P series for about 4 months and I am basically now fed up with it.

There are five things going for it, namely:-

1 to 4 - The four Piano voices

5 - The keybed.

That is about it, it is tool for getting used to playing a Piano with hammer action keys and to have some pretty good Piano voices.

There are drum patterns built in but they will not exactly set the world on fire since they are very basic and limited in numbers.

Thereis no LCD display with a P series, the Yamaha App related to the keyboard is Smart Pianist and it is best at creating and saving simple Registrations. Yamaha keyboards do come with a free three month subscription to Flowkey which is pretty good but after three months a learner should have completed all the available tutorial modules and this will help to give them a good grounding.

 

[anotherscott]

I have had my P series for about 4 months and I am basically now fed up with it.

Too bad you're not local to gswetsky, he could buy yours. ;-)

There are five things going for it, namely:-

1 to 4 - The four Piano voices

5 - The keybed.

which is cool, since piano and keybed is pretty much all he's interested in, as far as we know. (Remember, he still has his VR09 for lots of other stuff.) Except he also wants a MIDI connection, which is why I thought a Kawai ES110 or Kurzweil SP1 could be a way to go. I was thrown by the need for learning materials, but if he's talking about Flowkey, it looks like he could buy that separately no matter what board he chooses. If he needs USB for that, the SP1 has USB in addition to its standard MIDI connections; the ES110 would require an inexpensive adapter. There is an obvious question as to whether he would like the Kawai or Kurzweil piano sounds as much as what's in the P95, but there are youtube videos where you can hear the piano sounds of all these boards. By reputation, I think the Kawai is likely to be the best feeling of the three.

 

[crlMIDI]

MIDI interfacing (including USB-DIN) can be done using items from Arduino microcontroller ecosystem, in particular the Teensy variety which has MIDI built in. You're unlikely to need to write your own code because there are plenty of examples on the internet.

 

[gswetsky]

This started out as a poor 82 year old (stress former) electronics whiz wanting to be able to send MIDI channel information from a Yamaha P-125 to a Roland VR-09. It has become a peeing contest over the plusses and minusses regarding the P-125. I don't see the purpose of discussing the features of the Yamaha that appeal to me. We can discuss that in another thread, right?

I have downloaded several of the manuals of the P-125 and note it has a lot of information on MIDI including how to send MIDI channel info (which is all I need) from the P-125's keyboard. That is half the battle. It WILL send the MIDI channel to the USB cable. Now all we need is the SOFTWARE to recognize the data coming from the Yamaha and convert it to a format that can then be sent to the Roland USB connection. It would certainly appear to me that it is quite possible. I simply wanted to know if anyone has taken the pains to write that software.

There is a P-125 less than three miles from me at a music shop just waiting for me to buy it and throw it gently into my Hyundai.

Now I suppose we'll start talking about why I bought a Hyundai.

Gerry

 

[Biggles]

Glad you are at the stage you are.

My Wife has a friend who is stuck in her Winter home in the Panhandle due to the Covid problem and she says that it is very bad there with a lot of cases.

Stay safe

 

[anotherscott]

This started out as a poor 82 year old (stress former) electronics whiz wanting to be able to send MIDI channel information from a Yamaha P-125 to a Roland VR-09.
...
I have downloaded several of the manuals of the P-125 and note it has a lot of information on MIDI including how to send MIDI channel info (which is all I need) from the P-125's keyboard. That is half the battle. It WILL send the MIDI channel to the USB cable. Now all we need is the SOFTWARE to recognize the data coming from the Yamaha and convert it to a format that can then be sent to the Roland USB connection. It would certainly appear to me that it is quite possible. I simply wanted to know if anyone has taken the pains to write that software.

As I covered in the three posts I wrote in this thread on June 26 and July 3, you'll need to either connect the VR09 and P125 to a computer, or to an iOS device, or to one of the adapters I linked to. The adapters work by themselves. For the computer or iOS device there are a wide choice of software programs you can run that will let you channel MIDI data between the two attached keyboards. (On the Roland, you can use either its USB port or its 5-pin MIDI connection.) What other information do you need?