Semi-weighted vs weighted actions

[Vlady]

Hello,

I have almost no experience playing on a semi-weighted action...always had weighted, hammer-action boards. I have 2 right now (Kawai CA701 and Korg SV2). Love them both; I typically play predominantly aps and eps, but like having the extra sounds to round out a song. However, as I get older, my hands are not as nimble and arthritis is making me contemplate a swap of the SV2 for a Nautilus 73 with the semi-weighted action. This would give a similar quality of eps but with the lighter action, as well as everything else a workstation can offer of which I would mainly use the recording and extra sounds.

My main question is how well the semi-weighted action would handle some of the expressivity of a Rhodes or a Wurly? Or the rapid chords of a song such as "Dreamer" by Supertramp? Would it be easier/harder to pull that off? (note that I am just a guy in his living room...not a pro). I would certainly keep the Kawai for any ap playing with that action. Would I be better off, assuming I got the Nautilus, to hook it up to Kawai when using the eps on Nautilus? Don't really want to go with a controller as I have too many boards already.

Any and all feedback/advice is always appreciated...thank-you.

 

[seanL122]

Before you spend a thousand bucks on the Nautilus 73, you should play it and decide if you like the action. The specs say "semi-weighted" -- but this term means nearly nothing. This just means it is NOT a hammer-like action, and it is not a wonderful old spring-loaded synth action (nearly zero resistance, but quick return). All "semi-weighted" means is something in between, and usually that just means they have added some resistance or stiffness to the action.

Even when folks say it is a "weighted" action, that doesn't guarantee that each key has a metal weight under the keytops. It usually just means more aggressive resistance and stiffness in the action.

Be aware that these "semi-weighted" actions will loosen up after a few weeks of playing. They get less stiff.

Also, the big thing to worry about when switching from a hammer-action or Rhodes to a synth action or whatnot is:

1. Stick length - synths and digital pianos have the hinge right at the back edge of the keys, and it does not feel at all like keys moving over the balance rail of an acoustic piano.

2. How bad is the feeling of the action on the black keys: the reduced stick length, and sometimes hateful rounding or tapering off of the rear of the black keys, makes if very hard to play four-and-five-note chords. Playing on the front end of the black key is fine, but as you move back it gets abnormally harder to play. Try to repeat a note with your pinky while holding other notes may be uncomfortable. Quick flourishes on the black keys might not trigger evenly.

Don't get me started on mini-keys....

I realize that this is my personal pet peeve, but it might be relevant to other folks.
----- -----

The other thing that is important for acoustic piano and electric piano sounds or samples is how finely you can tune the velocity to your own playing style. This is affected by two main things:

1. How awesome or sucky the sample is: if it only has one velocity layer, that is pretty sad. If it has more than two sample layers, you might expect it to sound good. Soft notes sound soft and gentle, loud notes ring out with more overtones and resonance. (Really loud notes on a multi-layer Rhodes sample will "honk" instead of "ping.")

2. If the keyboard controller can't allow you to hit the full dynamic range with your particular playing style (hand strength, propensity to pound), then you won't get the full dynamic range of the sample. Most keyboards will give you three settings for responsiveness: soft, medium, and hard. (And also one "static" setting to simply give you a uniform velocity no matter how hard you play.) I think three levels is not enough, and more is always better. If you love your Rhodes, you want to be able to easily play soft notes, but also get the "honk" on hard strikes. Lots of instruments trigger the "honk" too often with the responsiveness set to "hard," but can't make it honk when set to medium.

Ok, another personal pet peeve, but this is probably familiar to everyone.

Sean

P.S. - I kinda hate the latest keyboard actions where the keys are molded as three layers of ABS plastic that connect at the back, and are screwed down octave-by-octave. I greatly prefer the actions with a metal coil spring at the back of each and every key.

 

[Vlady]

Thank-you, that is excellent information...some things I would not have thought of...very much appreciated! I realize action is a very subjective thing, and always best to try multiple units before buying...just trying to do some homework in advance (unlike the school days).

I think I have been a bit spoiled with the actions I have...and I may end up staying with them...depends on how the hands hold up really...or if there was an excellent alternative action.

 

[KeysDude]

If your aim is to lighten the action due to aging hands etc as you mentioned then rather than getting a synth workstation keyboard with semi-weighted synth action just for EP (which is a bit overkill and waste of money), maybe look to exchange the SV2 for a Nord Electro 6D (73 key version) which has a semi weighted action but with piano style keys which gives you the same feel and expression of your Kawai but with a lighter action. So all those piano style licks and slides still feel the same plus it can play samples from the Nord library or your own and has a killer drawbar organ as well. The only thing the Electro doesn't have is a pitch bending mechanism but if that's not a problem then its a good solution for you. I'm personally not a fan of playing any type of piano sounds on synth action keys, the keys need to be a waterfall style for me but unfortunately all I have at the moment is a synth action midi controller which I make do with but I am seriously considering the new Studiologic SL Studio Mk2 master keyboard which has a built in USB-C audio interface and bundled with Numa X Player which is their virtual instrument containing loads of AC/EP pianos, synths etc which turns the SL Studio into a stage piano in effect when interfaced with an ipad or computer. Its keybed is the new Fatar T110 which although is a hammer action mechanism, its a lot lighter than most so you'll find it considerably lighter than your Kawai and the RH3 action in your SV2. The cost of the SL is only about £420 retail so a great cheaper alternative to buying a keyboard with built in sound and will open you up to buying virtual instruments which I personally prefer these days to dedicated hardware synths, stage pianos etc. For all my piano sounds I use Modartt Pianoteq, the acoustic and EPs are wonderful and highly expressive with a good waterfall keyboard action, semi or full.

 

[Vlady]

Thank-you for that KeysDude. I am a bit old school in terms of virtual instruments...for me, I like having everything under one roof so to speak...hence the thought of the Nautilus. I would make use of its' recording as well, but I agree that playing what I want to play on a semi-weighted is less than ideal and still up for debate for me. I may not make any change at all...just looking to see what people find are some pros/cons with semi-weighted.
I have heard good things about the Studiologic action and I believe their Numa X piano has a version with the same action.
The Nord Electro is an enticing idea...

 

[happyrat1]

It's kinda funny. I'm the first to admit that I'm shit on a piano, but I have no problem adapting to whatever keybed the hardware provides. Even mini keys are usable for basic practice, ear training and composition. Over the years I've gone thru so many different synths and really don't have that much trouble squeezing musical phrases out of any of them.

I guess, though, if you've been the conservatory route you become anally retentive about "authenticity."

 

[Biggles]

As you are used to a Korg.

The new Kronos is due to start shipping shortly.

Treat yourself.

 

[Biggles]

Or

Take a look at a Korg Pa5X, the 76 key version.

I have a 76 key 5X and the action is great, slightly heavier than the Studiologic Numa Compact 2X that I had (the Numa failed after three years).

 

[anotherscott]

Nord Electro 6D (73 key version) which has a semi weighted action but with piano style keys which gives you the same feel and expression of your Kawai but with a lighter action.

Electro 6D does not have piano style keys (they are not lipped, nor do they have hammers), and I would not describe it along the lines of "the feel of "the Kawai, only lighter."

I'm personally not a fan of playing any type of piano sounds on synth action keys, the keys need to be a waterfall style for me

Waterfall only refers to the shape of the key. The front edge is curved (shaped kind of like a waterfall), whereas the front edge of piano keys are lipped. The terms lipped and waterfall describe the shape, not the feel. That said...

highly expressive with a good waterfall keyboard action, semi or full.

...AFAIK, nobody has ever made a "fully" weighted or hammer action board that had waterfall-shaped keys.

Back to the OP, though, I have not played a Nautilus. I do find piano quite playable on the 88-key Liano, but has only a handful of sounds in it. That same action was used in the Kronos LS.

Another semi-weighted action that is supposed to be better than most for piano playing would be the Dexibell S1.

In current Rolands, the semi-weighted models with the most piano-amenable actions would be on the V-Stage 76 and the Fantom 7 (not the 07).

All Yamaha "full size" non-hammer actions have keys that are slightly smaller than everyone else's. Some people are very bothered by that, some not at all.

The aforementioned semi-weighted waterfall Nords are okay for piano... not bad but a bit too heavily sprung for my taste (kind of pushing back on your fingers as you play, more than on most boards), but there are certainly people who are very happy with them, so if you like the other features/capabilities if the board, it's also worth checking out.

None of these are going to feel much like either of your hammer action boards, but they are ones that I think you're more likely to find reasonably playable for piano compared to most.

 

[Vlady]

Or

Take a look at a Korg Pa5X, the 76 key version.

I have a 76 key 5X and the action is great, slightly heavier than the Studiologic Numa Compact 2X that I had (the Numa failed after three years).

Both the 5X and new Kronos look wonderful but I fear they are just too deep for me and for what I want to do. If I was 30 years old I would splurge and have the time to put into learning how to get the most out of them, but that is 30 years in the rear view mirror for me now. The boards I have (SV2, Kawai CA as well as a clonewheel and the Korg i3) are all just so simple. I know I would be missing out on some great features with the 2 you suggested but I just want to play and not tinker...I get too easily frustrated. Even the Nautilus for me may be too deep...But my thought had been that if I was to go the Nautilus route, I could conceivably trade-in the SV2, clonewheel and i3 and free up my living room for space/furniture once again...

 

[Vlady]

Electro 6D does not have piano style keys (they are not lipped, nor do they have hammers), and I wuld not describe it along the lines of "the feel of "the Kawai, only lighter."


Waterfall only refers to the shape of the key. The front edge is curved (shaped kind of like a waterfall), whereas the front edge of piano keys are lipped. The terms lipped and waterfall describe the shape, not the feel. That said...


...AFAIK, nobody has ever made a "fully" weighted or hammer action board that had waterfall-shaped keys.

Back to the OP, though, I have not played a Nautilus. I do find piano quite playable on the 88-key Liano, but has only a handful of sounds in it. That same action was used in the Kronos LS.

Another semi-weighted action that is supposed to be better than most for piano playing would be the Dexibell S1.

In current Rolands, the semi-weighed models with the most piano-amenable actions would be on the V-Stage 76 and the Fantom 7 (not the 07).

All Yamaha "full size" non-hammer actions have keys that are slightly smaller than everyone else's. Some people are very bothered by that, some not at all.

The aforementioned semi-weighted waterfall Nords are okay for piano... not bad but a bit too heavily sprung for my taste (kind of pushing back on your fingers as you play, more than on most boards), but there are certainly people who are very happy with them, so if you like the other features/capabilities if the board, it's also worth checking out.

None of these are going to feel much like either of your hammer action boards, but they are ones that I think you're more likely to find reasonably playable for piano compared to most.

As always, very informative response! I always forget about Dexibell, maybe because I've never seen one in any store around me...mind you I am 7 hours from any music store that carries the majority of the boards mentioned here. For whatever reason I have never really been blown away by Roland, but to be fair, I haven't looked closely at them for a number of years now.
The Nord is enticing as it would be a good replacement for organ and eps that I use most often...just lacking the recording capabilities. And that isn't necessarily a deal-breaker, I do still have an old digital multitrack recorder I can dust off if it still works!

At any rate, thank-you for taking the time to share your thoughts, I always pick up some new info here, and find new things to look into further thanks to this forum. I'm basically just thinking out loud really and tossing ideas around in my head. My hands feel really good today, so I'm inclined to remain status quo. However 2 days from now when they start aching again, I'll probably revisit these ideas.
To be 30 again!!

 

[anotherscott]

For whatever reason I have never really been blown away by Roland, but to be fair, I haven't looked closely at them for a number of years now.

I've generally considered Roland weak for EPs, but the V-Stage sounds like it might turn me around on that one. I still may need to be convinced about the acoustic pianos. But also getting back to your worries about complexity, the V-Stage looks like it could also be worth looking at from that perspective (i.e. compared to their Fantom-7, or the Nautilus you mentioned).

To be 30 again!!

Heck, to be 50 again!! ;-)

 

[Vlady]

I've generally considered Roland weak for EPs, but the V-Stage sounds like it might turn me around on that one. I still may need to be convinced about the acoustic pianos. But also getting back to your worries about complexity, the V-Stage looks like it could also be worth looking at from that perspective (i.e. compared to their Fantom-7, or the Nautilus you mentioned).


Heck, to be 50 again!! ;-)

Ya, I'd take 50 again for sure!

Actually the V-Stage is a great suggestion, because, even if its' acoustic pianos are a weak link, I have my Kawai which I can't imagine anything better for that in the digital realm.

 

[a.completeunknown]

Hello,

I have almost no experience playing on a semi-weighted action...always had weighted, hammer-action boards. I have 2 right now (Kawai CA701 and Korg SV2). Love them both; I typically play predominantly aps and eps, but like having the extra sounds to round out a song. However, as I get older, my hands are not as nimble and arthritis is making me contemplate a swap of the SV2 for a Nautilus 73 with the semi-weighted action. This would give a similar quality of eps but with the lighter action, as well as everything else a workstation can offer of which I would mainly use the recording and extra sounds.

My main question is how well the semi-weighted action would handle some of the expressivity of a Rhodes or a Wurly? Or the rapid chords of a song such as "Dreamer" by Supertramp? Would it be easier/harder to pull that off? (note that I am just a guy in his living room...not a pro). I would certainly keep the Kawai for any ap playing with that action. Would I be better off, assuming I got the Nautilus, to hook it up to Kawai when using the eps on Nautilus? Don't really want to go with a controller as I have too many boards already.

Any and all feedback/advice is always appreciated...thank-you.

I've found MSM (methylsulfonylmethane sulfur complex) supplements helped decrease my arthritis symptoms a lot. Not 100% gone but greatly improved.

 

[richardtrifan]

Hello, My take was to buy the Casio Celviano with the Bechstein hammer action (GP-510BP), around $6K but worth it, the genuine fulcrum action is superior to my 1958 Steinway L (because it needs an action rebuild). You can look in the top of the Casio and see the hammers coming up and hitting the sensor pads.

 

[Skyjumper]

Hello,

I have almost no experience playing on a semi-weighted action...always had weighted, hammer-action boards. I have 2 right now (Kawai CA701 and Korg SV2). Love them both; I typically play predominantly aps and eps, but like having the extra sounds to round out a song. However, as I get older, my hands are not as nimble and arthritis is making me contemplate a swap of the SV2 for a Nautilus 73 with the semi-weighted action. This would give a similar quality of eps but with the lighter action, as well as everything else a workstation can offer of which I would mainly use the recording and extra sounds.

My main question is how well the semi-weighted action would handle some of the expressivity of a Rhodes or a Wurly? Or the rapid chords of a song such as "Dreamer" by Supertramp? Would it be easier/harder to pull that off? (note that I am just a guy in his living room...not a pro). I would certainly keep the Kawai for any ap playing with that action. Would I be better off, assuming I got the Nautilus, to hook it up to Kawai when using the eps on Nautilus? Don't really want to go with a controller as I have too many boards already.

Any and all feedback/advice is always appreciated...thank-you.

It is a relearning process. Semiweighted allows for faster action and is great for organ. Moving to wurly, most decent boards you can adjust the action. Im a roland guy. Im 67 and have arthritis and find semi weighted keeps my hands working. Honestly, I have no desire to go ack to any weighted keys and will never do 88 for any gigs.

 

[BleugrassBoy]

Every keyboard is different so you just have to try it yourself. I can play anything just fine - I even have some minikeys I travel with - but some I like better than others for some applications. This is why I would advise you to have 8-10 keyboards to choose from.

 

[Rayblewit]

This is why I would advise you to have 8-10 keyboards to choose from.

Is that all! Only 10?
You need a truck

 

[BleugrassBoy]

Is that all! Only 10?
You need a truck

I’m just tryin’ to help, man!

 

[sjmarano]

Testing

It is a relearning process. Semiweighted allows for faster action and is great for organ. Moving to wurly, most decent boards you can adjust the action. Im a roland guy. Im 67 and have arthritis and find semi weighted keeps my hands working. Honestly, I have no desire to go ack to any weighted keys and will never do 88 for any gigs.

So from someone of comparable age who started on a Hammond organ, who has been playing semi-weighted keyboards for years (purely as a hobbyist), but who has extremely limited experience playing on an acoustic piano or a fully weighted digital keyboard, let me ask a related question. Outside of becoming conversant with playing an acoustic piano, is there any substantive benefit to acquiring and learning how to play a fully weighted keyboard? More specifically, does a piano keyboard open up methods of expression/articulation that cannot be easily duplicated using a semi-weighted keyboard? If it helps in answering, I mostly play popular and jazz style music, and my main workhorse keyboard is a Korg M3 which I use both for its excellent internal sounds and as a MIDI controller for a fairly wide range of plug-ins (including PianoTeq).