Using non-MIDI controllers as MIDI controllers

[bill5]

Just a general thought...if one doesn't play live, I don't see much incentive to do this, although it could be fun just to have the "I don't need no stinkin computer" ability, i.e., just power up and go.

I'm therefore wondering what experiences others have had with various other keyboards and if they did/didn't work well as MIDI controllers.

 

[happyrat1]

The only reason I ever have to use a dumb MIDI controller is if I want to test a module or VSTi.

My religion however, forbids me to do any serious playing with that stuff.

Why settle for a simulation when you can play the real thing?

Arguments for hardware over software :

1). software retains zero resale value.

2) Menu diving sux.

3) Quicker bootup times.

4). Relative lifespan of software vs hardware.

5) The sheer physical pleasure of pushing a slider or knob into the. ultrasonic.

We now return you to your scheduled broadcast. Thanks for listening Earth creatures.

 

[bill5]

That's all off topic, but anyway:

The only reason I ever have to use a dumb MIDI controller is if I want to test a module or VSTi.

My religion however, forbids me to do any serious playing with that stuff.

Why settle for a simulation when you can play the real thing?

Define "real thing" - most sounds on most keyboards are emulations of the real thing, the obvious exception being purely synth sounds.

Arguments for hardware over software :

1). software retains zero resale value.

Not true (varies).

2) Menu diving sux.

Also varies and is subjective.

3) Quicker bootup times.

True.

4). Relative lifespan of software vs hardware.

Kinda, but this becomes less and less true over time.

5) The sheer physical pleasure of pushing a slider or knob into the. ultrasonic.

? Most MIDI controllers (or other keyboards being used as MIDI controllers) have sliders and knobs.

Reasons for software over hardware:

1) Far more cost efficient
2) Far more space efficient
3) Far easier to take with you wherever you go (software weighs so little )
4) Far less prone to break
5) Cannot really be stolen (even if your PC is stolen, you can still download a copy of whatever software you bought again)
6) Don't have to worry about spilling a drink on software

 

[Biggles]

Depends upon what you want!

I have one arranger keyboard, one small midi keyboard, a Fender Stratocaster, a MacBook with Logic Pro and that is it.

I simply do not have the physical space for masses of keyboards, nor the inclination to buy up my local store.

I have dabbled with the dark art of MIDI and spent many frustrating hours trying to get a succession of MIDI controllers to work before I found one that works.

A DAW will take me longer to learn than I have years left on this planet, I’ve tried and the results leave me underwhelmed as everything feels false and in need of further electronic processing. Sorry but that is not the music I want.

I dabble with VST’s and my iPad which is connected to my Korg and they work great, but I already have thousands of sounds and permutations built in so have very little need. Having to adjust the parameters on the iPad or in Logic Pro sucks, I would rather buy a physical synth if I was into the sounds, cannot beat actual knobs and sliders rather than having to use a touchscreen.

I am not into composing, just playing so what I have and do works for me.

 

[anotherscott]

I think bill5 is asking about using a keyboard-with-sounds as a MIDI controller as an alternative to using a dedicated soundless MIDI controller, whereas replies are dealing with an entirely different question (using hardware sounds v.s software sounds). So to address what I think bill is asking about...

Soundless MIDI controllers vary in their capabilities enormously, as do the MIDI controller capabilities of boards-with-sounds. You can also get MIDI control surfaces that can be used with your choice of keyboard, if you'd like certain controls that your keyboard of choice doesn't have (e.g. dedicated DAW transport control buttons if you want them--which, again, not all soundless MIDI controllers have either).

For things like like programmable knobs/buttons/sliders, the difference is that you can generally just look at a soundless controller and know whether or not it has them; whereas on a keyboard-with-sounds, it's not as simple as "you see them or you don't," because it's possible that you can see lots of controls, but they may not all be programmable, or even easily mappable on the receiving end (e.g. some may send sysex rather than CC). So then it comes down to which keyboards you're looking at. Which gets back to your question about which do and do not work well. Which then depends on just what you want to do. (Which is a question you need to ask when looking at soundless MIDI controllers as well.)

What price range would you expect to be looking in?

Broadly speaking, to start, Kurzweil K-series or PC-series are generally particularly good as MIDI controllers; and Roland Fantom series is good especially if you use Logic/Mainstage or Ableton Live, since they have special integration features for those DAWs (and I believe the new EX upgraded added Cubase and Studio One support)... the Fantoms work as generic MIDI controllers as well, they just have additional features designed to integrate with those specific environments. But even a little Yamaha CK61 makes for an above average MIDI controller.

 

[bill5]

I think bill5 is asking about using a keyboard-with-sounds as a MIDI controller as an alternative to using a dedicated soundless MIDI controller, whereas replies are dealing with an entirely different question (using hardware sounds v.s software sounds). So to address what I think bill is asking about...

Yes, exactly, thank you...esp interested in specific examples of keyboards and how they worked out

Some clarifications: I don't give a hoot about knobs and sliders. I only care about MIDI compatibility. Transport controls would be great, but I rarely if ever have seen them on anything other than MIDI controllers.

As for what I want to do, ideally I'd love a keyboard that has transport controls that I could use to record and interact with my DAW/VIs, but also had on-board sounds if I just wanted to flip it on and play around a bit. I'll have to research add-on transport control surfaces. I wonder if they might have compatibility issues, depending on the keyboard?

Price-wise, the less, the better...the examples you gave are too high, so the answer might be get a less expensive keyboard and tack on the control surface thing.

 

[anotherscott]

I don't give a hoot about knobs and sliders. I only care about MIDI compatibility.

That's easy. Any current board with either USB or 5-pin MIDI connections is basically compatible for MIDI. In the old days, you had to worry about USB boards requiring custom drivers, but that's not an issue with any current board. There may be drivers available to provide additional functionality, but everything these days has basic compatibility without installing any drivers.

Transport controls would be great, but I rarely if ever have seen them on anything other than MIDI controllers.

I know at least Roland, Kurzweil, and Yamaha have models with this function. Often, you'll see transport controls for a board's internal sequencer, and it may just be a menu option to use these same buttons to control DAW transport.

As for what I want to do, ideally I'd love a keyboard that has transport controls that I could use to record and interact with my DAW/VIs, but also had on-board sounds if I just wanted to flip it on and play around a bit. I'll have to research add-on transport control surfaces. I wonder if they might have compatibility issues, depending on the keyboard?

No compatibility issues, because they don't have to talk to the keyboard at all. Your keyboard and your control surface can both be connected directly to your computer, rather than each other.

Price-wise, the less, the better...the examples you gave are too high, so the answer might be get a less expensive keyboard and tack on the control surface thing.

Cheaper than anything I mentioned... Maybe Yamaha MX49/61 could do the trick...?

 

[S90yam]

+1 on the yamaha mx49/61! I use the mx49 myself as a top board. It comes with the motif sound bank and is designed to act as a controller for your daw/vi’s. I used a 61 key controller on bottom for a while driving the sounds of the mx49, just had to add a midi usb host. I basically turned a single keyboard with great sounds into two by adding a simple interface and a midi controller. I used the multi timbral capability of the mx to have a 61key version of the mx on bottom and the 49key on top. Talk about a light weight easy to carry dual keyboard set up!! It worked great! I know your asking more about using a keyboard to act as a controller for your daw, thats what i think yamaha was going for when they introduced the mx series. A full function keyboard that plays nice with the whole DAW and VST scenario.

 

[ca.88fingers]

I don't use a computer when gigging. I use one synth to do all splits and layers, and then MIDI 5pin into it for a 2nd manual. These days I'm using an Integra 7 with 2 kbs and 5pin MIDI. It has been an exhaustive journey, I've tried a dozen of options and researched many more.

To answer your question, at home, I LOVE LOVE LOVE the Integra 7. It has thousands of sounds that cover everything. I find it easier and faster than software synths.
However, it doesn't have the same level of 'live tweaking' as many other synths, especially analog ones. I don't play EDM or anything too complex, so I don't have to worry about it.

If you are only playing at home, I think it's almost pointless to go with a standalone synth. Find a good-feeling controller, with or without USB or 5pin, and go the software route. But, of course, everyone is different and has different preferences and opinions.

You do you! The important thing, I think, is to quickly find that solution and play the **** out of it. This obsession with FOMO doesn't make you a better player.

 

[bill5]

Thanks for the replies...the more I think about it, the less inclined I am to pursue this. My primary interest is in composing/recording, so I can't justify the cost for a keyboard that might or might not be sufficiently MIDI compatible with my DAW and not even have basic transport controls unless I spend more than I'd care to spend.

 

[anotherscott]

Yeah, if the MX49/MX61 are out of budget, then this probably isn't the path for you. Though if you gave up on the built-in transport buttons, there might be lower budget options. I like the Casio CT-S500, for example. It even has built-in speakers, for your "just power up and go" ideal.

 

[bill5]

$800+ for 61 keys? Yeah, easily out of budget. And again my main thing is composing, so transport buttons are a must. I think I'll get a MIDI controller and maybe look at less expensive workstations to just fool around.

 

[anotherscott]

Well, the Casio CT-S500 I mentioned is half that price, and might give you everything you want except the on-board transport controls. So then maybe you add something like a Behinger X-Touch Mini or Korg NanoKontrol...? Just another possibility. The Casio has enough free panel space (at least when you're not making use of its internal speakers) that you'd have a convenient place to put the accessory.

 

[bill5]

Oh I forgot all about the little add-on controller thingies I could get inexpensively...hm...