VR730 or VR09 and bass pedals

[Dave Fournier]

Hi all, new to this forum. I just bought a VR730, and would like to play organ with 3 parts, LH,RH,&bass. In order to do this would I need to locate a Roland PK pedal unit with PK output like the PK6, or will I be able to do this with any MIDI pedals like the Hammond XPK100? The manual is not too clear.

Thanks in advance! Dave

 

[Dave Fournier]

To answer my own question, for anyone else's information, it seems that in order to play 3 parts you must have a pedal unit with the PK out, and connect the to PK in on the keyboard. I connected a Hammond XPK-100, and that automatically plays the lower keyboard part.

Roland no longer offers the PK6. I don't think it is ethical to advertise this feature (3 parts) when Roland no longer supports it. I am keeping my eyes open for a used PK6 to show up on Ebay or Craigslist.

I have a Hammond SK2, with a Hammond XPK-200 pedalboard that I use for organ gigs (like wedding ceremonies etc). I was hoping that the VR-730 and a smaller set of pedals would be an even lighter traveling setup. I am also planning to use it for my main gig of keyboard player in an 8 pc. horn band, and it is suited just fine for me in that capacity, so I am not disappointed in the purchase of this keyboard.

I bought a Hammond XPK-100 pedalboard to try it out, but no luck. But at least I can use them with the Hammond SK2, or maybe locate a good used Hammond SK1 for a super lightweight setup without sacrificing the sound.

Additionally, the manual states that you can connect to the internet (or "ad-hoc") to use the iPad app by using a WiFi adapter, WNA1100-RL. However, once again, Roland no longer offers them. I bought a Netgear N150 for $25 on Amazon, and that works fine (I believe Netgear made them for Roland).

So what we have is an otherwise great keyboard, brand new this past year, marketed to have features that Roland has discontinued.

 

[happyrat1]

They still market keyboards these days with breath controller inputs as well, though Yamaha discontinued making them almost a decade ago.

What's a po' boy to do?

Gary

 

[delaware dave]

If the VR09/VR30 support organ on three channels, i.e. upper, lower and pedal then any midi pedal will work including the hammond pedals you mentioned as long as the pedals are transmitting on the correct midi channel. You need to find out from Roland whether the VR09 or the VR730 support midi pedals. If they do ask what channel the midi pedals need to be transmitting on and then set the hammond pedals to transmit on that channel. It should work. If the PK pedals were plugged into the PK jack then it was a way of getting it power and midi combined. You could also plug the pk6 into a midi keyboard using the standard midi connection but would then have to separately power the pk6 with a power adapter. The connector eliminated the need to power the pedals as the pk6 comnector did the job of acting as a midi connector and a power supply in one connection.

 

[Dave Fournier]

Thanks for the clarification on the operation of the PK connector.
The manual has MIDI transmit channels, and those are changable in the menu for upper, lower, pedals, and drums. But nothing for MIDI recieve. I connected the pedals again, and re-read the manual more closely and was able to split it for 3 parts, the pedals work, but I can't seem to control the lower part drawbars, when I cursor to the lower part and move the drawbars the screen shows the pedal part and moving the drawbars doesn't affect anything. . I wish it could be less complicated.
I will say, however, the organ sound is really pretty good, playing two hands on the upper part ("Crawford style") and pedals. Too bad it doesn't have pedal sustain, but I guess it just makes it closer to an old Hammond B3. If I can get the lower part sorted out it should be great for my intended use.

 

[delaware dave]

Remove the pedals out of the equation temporarily and see if you can get the lower drawbars to work without having pedal interference. Typically upper, lower and pedal work on three consecutive channels. Try moving things out so that there is no interference, meaning assign upper to channel 5, lower to channel 6 and pedals to channel 7, assuring no internal interference. See if you can get the upper and lower to work that way. If you can then add the pedals into the equation at channel 7, it should work. Report back the results. BTW, which keyboard are you using the VR730 or VR09? What is your second keyboard, or are you 'splitting' a single keyboard manual between upper and lower and trying to add pedals? If so, this might be the issue as to why the lower is moving the foot pedal drawbars. You might actually need three controllers, one for upper, one for lower and the pedals.

 

[delaware dave]

I downloaded the manual. I don't think the keyboard supports three parts for organ. I did not see a control that assigns the drawbars to separately control upper, lower, and pedal drawbars (like the SK2 does). I only see upper and lower which appears to be either splitting the keyboard or adding a 2nd keyboard for the lower (page 12 of the manual). So you can add a 2nd keyboard or pedals, but the pedals will be your lower keyboard. It doesn 't appear that you can split the keyboard between upper and lower and then add pedals nor does it appear that you can have upper, separate lower and pedals. The keyboard assumes the pedals are the 2nd keyboard and since you plugged in the pedals you probably lose your ability to split, which is why you have to play Crawford style, i.e. why the lower split point disappeared on you when the pedals are connected. You might want to call Roland customer service and confirm. +1-323-890-3740

 

[Dave Fournier]

Thanks, I believe that is what is happening, the VR is treating the pedals as a second MIDI keyboard, which is why I was thinking that a PK connection might be needed. I can split the keyboard into right and left, with separate drawbar control of each. I have the VR-730. I only have a problem when the pedals are thrown into the mix. I may try adding a MIDI keyboard in like shown in the manual, but that will defeat my purpose anyway.
My next option that I am considering is picking up a sound module, right now I am watching a Roland Sonic Cell on Ebay. I can just run my pedals into that, and will have more options for bass sounds, and the audio output can run right into the VR730 external audio input to be mixed in with the L/R out, that way I wouldn't necessarily need to go thru a mixer. When doing these types if gigs I run straight into a pair of QSC K10 speakers.
Or, I just forget the whole thing, use this keyboard for my band gigs and use my Hammond SK2 for the organ stuff, like I have been doing.

By the way, I saw your gear list on your profile...nice to know that there is another "collector" out there (but my wife thinks it is a sickness!). I was using a Kurzweil PC3, but after a few years it started giving me problems. Right now I have it sitting here, three notes are playing multiple notes when the keyboard is played, but no problem when playing it from a MIDI keyboard. I took it apart and cleaned the keybed and connections, but no luck. I hate having it sitting unused, but there aren't many places that I can find locally (Western Mass) that repair them. I want to sell it, but I would fix it first, and if I do that, then I'd most likely keep it... Liked your band videos too!

 

[delaware dave]

The PC3 setup is basically a midi setup; i.e. the keyboard is internally MIDI'd to the engine. The fact that you indicated that there are no problems when the keyboard is MIDI externally to control another module and doesn't play multiple notes tells me there is a software corruption. It is sending the same MIDI notes internally when a key is depressed as it does externally. The fact that playing those notes to an external unit produces one note of sound but internally produces three notes of sound indicates software issues. I would do a hard reset, or better yet, a fresh install of everything. I'm not sure what software level you are on (I'll assume 2.21, the latest). I would go to the Kurzweil site and download the entire 2.21 package (operating system update).

http://kurzweil.com/product/pc3/downloads/

I would then do a fresh install of 2.21 following all of the instructions which wipe out all internal tables and refreshes everything. The entire process takes about 10 minutes. I'm fairly certain that your problem will disappear. Of course when you do the fresh install all internal programs are lost; so you would have to back them up first and then reload them. Before reloading anything I would do the fresh install and see if the problem goes away. If it does then I would reload your programs and see if the problem resurfaces. You may have a program that corrupts the internal memory. This is especially true if you ever used the soundtower editor which is notorious for corrupting the data. Also someone may have given you a program to use that also did the corruption.

If you look at my gear you will see that mostly all of it relates back to organ in some manner; even my GEM Equinox's which I purchased because they had 8 sliders which I used for Hammond drawbars. The pride and joy though is the Gemini module. If you've never heard it listen here:

http://www.genuinesoundware.com/?a=showproduct&b=43

Has the Crumar Mojo organ in it; a physical modeled Clav with all of the filters and pickup options (controlled by the PC3's drawbars), a modeled Wurli and Rhodes and a decent acoustic piano (sample/modeled hybrid), modeled horns, strings, and a very good digital synth. My only wish is that it gets tucked into a 76 key keyboard; my setup time at a gig is 30 minutes; too long. If it were already self contained in a keyboard I probably would be done buying gear.

 

[Dave Fournier]

Thanks, I downloaded the update and I will try to re-install everything in the next few days. I'll let you know what happens!

 

[Dave Fournier]

Nope, installed the update (I had installed it a few years ago when I had scanning problems but did it again anyway). Same problem, midi note F3 is somehow triggered with A2, and C#2 triggers with A2.

I think I am just going to list it for sale "as is" and be done with it.

Thanks for your assistance!

 

[Tugge]

The Hammod SK-2 has default midi ch Upper 1, Lower 2, Pedal 3 so probably the XPK-100 default transmit midi is ch 3.
VR-730 has default (and I think it can't be changed for RX) Upper 4, Lower 3, Pedal 2. So it seems to be correct that the XPK-100 should play Lower if you haven't made any changes.
Set XPK-100 to Transmit ch 2 and try again.

If you want to be able to use all the hidden Atelier Organ sounds that are only accessable via midi the easiest is to use Franky46:s CTRL interface on a simple windows tablet connected to midi.

 

[Dave Fournier]

THANK YOU!!!

That worked. Too bad they could not explain that more clearly in the manual.
I have the VR09 iPad app, and hooked up to the keyboard via AdHoc mode. I can control the lower and pedal drawbars on the iPad without having to fiddle around with the Split and Upper/Lower buttons on the keyboard and leave the keyboard drawbars for the upper, which is mostly what I adjust anyway.
Now if there was a way to add a little sustain to the pedal part I would be a happy camper!

I was seriously thinking about getting a little synth module like the Waldorf Rocket just for the pedals, but the volume would not follow the expression of the organ, which would be a trade-off, but I can live with it like it is now. Plus the Hammond B3's didn't have sustain anyway.

Dave

 

[Dave Fournier]

Would the Atelier Organ sounds give me more options for the bass?

 

[Tugge]

I can't really tell since I haven't the VR09 myself but have been thinking of getting one. I hadn't actually thought of the bass sustain. I just thought it would be there since it's a normal feature for clones and hadn't checked. I can't play left hand bass, only foot bass so I think it would be difficult for me to use it without the sustain.

If you use the V-combo editor (it will replace the ipad App with drawbars and everyting and have access to more sounds, but it runs on windows) you can choose the Atelier bass sounds. However they are not available at midi ch 2 (as fas as I understand) you wouldn't be able to choose between the atelier sounds and the organ bass at the same time on the same midi ch. It should be possible to choose midi ch1 for the bass and acceess the dual voice channel for the bass. Thing is that I don't know if this sound also will be triggered form upper on the keyboard also since it's indended for dual voice. Should I just take a guees I would guess that it's possible to select a sound for midi ch1 and play on bass pedals without also playing it on the keyboard but I don't know.
There are a couple of organ bass, couple of orchestra bass and a couple of electric bass to choose from. I don't know if choosing these organ bass will give same problem with the sustain.
Since I can't test myself there are some speculation here. You will have to test yourself. It would be interesting to here if you can use midi ch1 and if you can solve bass sustain problem.

 

[Franky46]

only foot bass so I think it would be difficult for me to use it without the sustain.

It should be possible to choose midi ch1 for the bass and acceess the dual voice channel for the bass. if this sound also will be triggered form upper on the keyboard

Hi,
sorry for interfering , just saw that there where some VR related questions (I thought they are all on music player?!

- there is NO sustain for the VR drawbar-organ bass.

- your idea of using "piano dual' channel (CH no 1) for bass:

* 1st problem: it will also sound if you hit a note on the upper manual of the VR. A workaround would be to use an external key (e.g. a hammer piano master key) for the upper-manual of the VR, sending on CH4.

* 2nd problem: if you select sounds on the VR-keyboard, only sounds from the PIANO-section load into the "piano dual" part. Sounds from SYNTH section (e.g. "Bass") load to a - we could call it 'synth dual' part (you do not see this finesse on the VR-LCD panel !). To overcome this limit and load a sound from SYNTH section to "piano dual", you have to use the mentioned V-Combo Editor Windows app (on the Editor, 'piano-dual' is "UM2-VCE"). This is also valid for the ATELIER sounds and those from Soundexplorer.

so what you can do:
- load a sound to the lower manual and play it with the pedal (on channel 3) - so no lower manual
- use the Windows editor + 'piano dual' + external keyboard for upper
- use the Windows editor + GM2-soundprocessor of the VR: load a sound from the editor-GM2-Tab into e.g. midi Channel 5 (or 6, 7 etc) and switch the base-pedal to midi channel 5. You can add sustain using the "PianoPedal" or the 'R' -slider from "SynTheSizer". GM2 has accoustique, electric and synth bass (no organ bass though).
- use a hardware midi controller (those with a lot of programmable buttons) instead of the software Editor to manage the GM2-soundbank of the VR.

 

[Tugge]

Hi Franky!

Thanks for straighten things out and for your effort with the V-Combo Editor.
I have been looking for a used vr09 for while but yet not seen any. Now this with drawbars bass sustain, that I had't though of, is bit put off. But I'm really interessted to gett access to the Ateliers sounds.
Of course another option would be to buy the cheapest Atelier, seen used for double price of a new VR09. But then again need access to hidden sound. Any chance V-Combi Editor will work for the common features as selecting sounds? All common sounds have the same midi Address. Not us though of the SYSEX for drawbars since the manual formats are little bit different but they may be identical.
(though Atlier has added features as Pipe and Theater Organ sounds also for drawbars only choosable with SYSEX and rythm patters where many also are hidden and only choosable with midi)

A questions though for VR09.
If you would choose a Atelier Organ bass sound for on ch1 (use the keyboard as lower ch3 even though I don't understand to get the whole keyboard as lower) and controll upper ch4 with control keyboard, would it then be possible to add sustain to the Atelier Organ Bass on ch1 using V-Combo Editor?

I wish there was a way to copy the transmitet notes on midi ch 2, with some device, to send on both ch2 AND ch1 so that you could have access to both both the drawbar bass ch2 and dual ch1 as a bass channel. But to my awarenes there are no such devices. Strange because it doesn't sound as a difficult feat to do.

 

[Franky46]

Hi

> buy the cheapest Atelier, seen used for double price of a new VR09.
a 350 V-Combo or the one of those spinet models?

> Any chance V-Combi Editor will work for the common features as selecting sounds?
out of the box? maybe, but unlikely

> Atelier Organ bass sound for on ch1 [...] and controll upper ch4 with control keyboard, would it then be possible to add sustain to the Atelier Organ Bass on ch1 using V-Combo Editor?

www.rrr.de/~franky/upload/AUDIO_01.zip
0 - 0:30: default Atelier Organ Bass1...Posaune16 loaded to voice UM2-VCE (= CH1)
0:30-end: applied some "Sustain" = "RELEASE" drawbar/slider of the onboard SYNTH

> use the keyboard as lower ch3 even though I don't understand to get the whole keyboard as lower
split point

> copy the transmitet notes on midi ch 2, with some device, to send on both ch2 AND ch1 so
there are several boxes from midisolutions : http://midisolutions.com/prodrte.htm, http://midisolutions.com/prodpos.htm ..

 

[Tugge]

Hi

> buy the cheapest Atelier, seen used for double price of a new VR09.
a 350 V-Combo or the one of those spinet models?

> Any chance V-Combi Editor will work for the common features as selecting sounds?
out of the box? maybe, but unlikely

> Atelier Organ bass sound for on ch1 [...] and controll upper ch4 with control keyboard, would it then be possible to add sustain to the Atelier Organ Bass on ch1 using V-Combo Editor?

www.rrr.de/~franky/upload/AUDIO_01.zip
0 - 0:30: default Atelier Organ Bass1...Posaune16 loaded to voice UM2-VCE (= CH1)
0:30-end: applied some "Sustain" = "RELEASE" drawbar/slider of the onboard SYNTH

> use the keyboard as lower ch3 even though I don't understand to get the whole keyboard as lower
split point

> copy the transmitet notes on midi ch 2, with some device, to send on both ch2 AND ch1 so
there are several boxes from midisolutions : http://midisolutions.com/prodrte.htm, http://midisolutions.com/prodpos.htm ..

If would to get an Atelier only AT-100 is of interest. It's the cheapest (with 61 key lower) but also have a flat top close to upper keyboard where you could put another keyboard.
However I'll continue a while to look for a used VR09 (mainly because of your editor where all sounds may be choosen) before deciding to buy a new or something else.
An atelier have the problem that you need something like V-combo editor to access the sounds and preferable something similar to choose rythms also but sounds is most important. Perhaps it's possible to do oneself. As I said. All parts, midi ch 1 to ch4, and sounds are the same midi as VR09.

So would work with sustain and the Atelier Organ bass and could for sure be an option. Some sounded to me as if there was a very small amount of sustain already in the sound.

Wow that midi solution seems to do what I asked for "Messages can also be rechannelized to any other MIDI channel". It just may be needed to connect the 2 channels to one midi output afterwards, thanks.

For me it would really be working very good to have an VR09 as a lower and controlling upper externally. Then if possbly drive both ch1 and ch2 from bass pedals would be more or less perfect.
I found in manual that you can hold down split and then choose the highest key then whole all keys should be lower. Preferable that should have been possible to save as start up otherwise it goes back to default every time you turn it off. It' would be a bit annoying to alway have to change it after turn-on but possible.

 

[Franky46]

> Atelier AT-100 vs VR09
priceof(VR09+basspedal+Hammer/Waterfallkey+Amp/Loudspeakes+Midirouter+etc.etc.) vs. priceof(AT100) ??
portable lightweight plastic synclav vs. real living-room instrument ??

> mainly because of your editor where all sounds may be choosen
spend so many many hours on the editor, some 1-2 additional hours to adapt the editor (for the Atelier-Tab) to an Atelier would not make the difference. Anyway it might be usefull for any Atelier owner.

> Some sounded to me as if there was a very small amount of sustain already in the sound.
indeed