Workstation for World Music?

[Vantrance]

Hello Good day Everyone,

I’m new here and thinking to buy a workstation KB for composing World Music and New Age especially realistic Flutes, Strings and dreamy Pads sounds and of cos Ethnic Drums.
And I narrow down to these 3 workstations,

- Roland FA
- Fantom O series
- Roland Juno DS
- Yamaha Modx

My question is among those KBs, which one can produce realistic instruments for world music? I’ll surely buy some VSTi later but now I need at least a Workstation with audio interface and built in acoustic sounds.

As far as I read around google and most said Yamaha is better in acoustic instruments and Roland is good for synth. But also some said Roland Super Natural acoustic sounds are better. So I can’t decide yet.

Please recommend me which one is suitable for me? Also is there other Keyboard better in those sounds?

Thanks

 

[Chris Laarman]

(I'm no expert, rather a fellow seeker. And a composer rather than a performer.)

I think that your original choice could be limited to Roland's Fantom-0 series (or the original bigger Fantom series) and their Yamaha counterpart Modx (or bigger Montage series). Have a look at the "similar threads" suggested by this website for the differences. - And yes, you may find the world music sounds you want in the VST products of EastWest, which happen to be compatible with Native Instruments' Kontakt. You may want to keep in mind the S series of Kontakt master keyboards.
I have purchased bundles of Roland Cloud expansions for my Fantom-08, but I have found no opportunity yet to familiarize myself with the instrument, nor with how to add these expansions. (I'll watch the videos on that subject.)

I think that the (sustained) sound of instruments is one thing, but the way of playing is another. That is where you would leave the realm of keyboards. That's where I have added Yamaha DD-75 digital drums to my old Roland ones, and added a Roland AE-30 wind controller to my old Yamaha ones. Not mentioning MIDI guitars of different approaches.
The AE-30 has the same Z-Core engine as both Fantom series.

After watching some YouTube videos, I have ordered an Artiphon Instrument 1 MIDI controller. It looks like a guitar fretboard, but with "keys" rather than strings. I plan to use this with fretless sounds like oud, or bowed instruments, or trombone (for jazzy slides). Alternatively, I consider myself at least adequate at emulating the playing of violins and trumpets on a wind controller.

I'm under the impression that my way of recording my songs will be a mix of MIDI and analog playing. I do plan to use the sequencer in the Fantom-08, but I also have a digital multi-track recorder (Zoom R24).
Especially with world music, you're likely to find tone intervals that match the layout of instruments, like the tuning of snare instruments and overtone intervals of brass instruments. And on button accordions (like the bayan), certain intervals may be easier or more logical than on piano accordions. So I also have a Roland FR-1xb...

PS: In many genres of music, you may want to control your tones while sounding. That is where (for keyboards) Aftertouch comes in. Please be aware that transmission and reception aren't tied together. All Fantoms can receive Aftertouch, but the keyboard (part) used in the Fantom-0 series doesn't send it. So you may find yourself having both a Fantom-0 and some other keyboard (synthesizer or mere master keyboard) with Aftertouch to control it. (Still cheaper and more luggable than an original Fantom.)

 

[anotherscott]

As far as I read around google and most said Yamaha is better in acoustic instruments and Roland is good for synth. But also some said Roland Super Natural acoustic sounds are better.

Leaving aside the question about the subjectivity of whether you prefer Roland's SuperNATURAL Acoustic (modeled behavior) or Yamaha's (potentially better sampled) version of a particular sound, also keep in mind that the Juno DS has no SuperNATURAL Acoustic tones, and the Fantom-0 has only a limited selection of them, illustrated below (plus some keyboard sounds, which I'd put in a different category), while the (discontinued) FA has even fewer (basically just acoustic/electric bass, acoustic guitar, and ensemble strings). The Integra 7 module is what has the largest library of SuperNATURAL Acoustic, but of course, that's a module, not a keyboard.

Regardless, none of the boards you mentioned except the discontinued FA are actually workstations per se (i.e. having a multitrack, editable, linear sequencer). Though maybe that's not essential since you can get that function from the computer you intend to connect to eventually anyway, when you start using VSTs. Sonically, Juno DS is probably the weakest of the bunch, having neither the deep sampling and extensive selectable alternate articulations available in the Yamaha nor the SuperNATURAL modeling available in the Fantom-0.

Assuming you really do prefer that the keyboard have built-in workstation-style sequencing functions, if you want a workstation that meets your specs, I'd look at Korg Nautilus and Kurzweil K2700. I'd say Korg has the more extensive sonic palette (especially with all its optional downloadable libraries), while Kurz gives you the better MIDI controller for when you start working with VSTs. The Kurzweil also has the aftertouch Chris mentioned, which is nice... none of the other mentioned boards do. But these are a step up in price from what you're looking at. If you're willing to trade-off that aftertouch and the built-in audio interface (something I'll get back to), you could get the lower priced Kurzweil PC4 or PC4-7 which are in your existing price range. Another possibility might be the predecessor to the MODX, the MOXF8, which is still available new at some outlets. That model had a full workstation-style sequencer.

But now I'll throw you a curve and suggest you might also want to look at another kind of board entirely. Korg's arrangers also actually have workstation-style sequencers in them, and for world music, the PA700 Oriental specifically facilitates the use of quarter-tones which you find in a lot of non-western music. Comparing to the boards you mentioned, sampling depth and articulations is closer to Yamaha's than Roland's, though its DNC function also incorporates some things that are similar to some of Roland's SuperNATURAL Acoustic modeling. It doesn't have the audio interface built in, though. Which brings me to my last point, is that really essential? What is your need for it? In most cases, it is merely a convenience, you can always use an external interface with whatever you get.

 

[Vantrance]

(I'm no expert, rather a fellow seeker. And a composer rather than a performer.)

I think that your original choice could be limited to Roland's Fantom-0 series (or the original bigger Fantom series) and their Yamaha counterpart Modx (or bigger Montage series). Have a look at the "similar threads" suggested by this website for the differences. - And yes, you may find the world music sounds you want in the VST products of EastWest, which happen to be compatible with Native Instruments' Kontakt. You may want to keep in mind the S series of Kontakt master keyboards.
I have purchased bundles of Roland Cloud expansions for my Fantom-08, but I have found no opportunity yet to familiarize myself with the instrument, nor with how to add these expansions. (I'll watch the videos on that subject.)

I think that the (sustained) sound of instruments is one thing, but the way of playing is another. That is where you would leave the realm of keyboards. That's where I have added Yamaha DD-75 digital drums to my old Roland ones, and added a Roland AE-30 wind controller to my old Yamaha ones. Not mentioning MIDI guitars of different approaches.
The AE-30 has the same Z-Core engine as both Fantom series.

After watching some YouTube videos, I have ordered an Artiphon Instrument 1 MIDI controller. It looks like a guitar fretboard, but with "keys" rather than strings. I plan to use this with fretless sounds like oud, or bowed instruments, or trombone (for jazzy slides). Alternatively, I consider myself at least adequate at emulating the playing of violins and trumpets on a wind controller.

I'm under the impression that my way of recording my songs will be a mix of MIDI and analog playing. I do plan to use the sequencer in the Fantom-08, but I also have a digital multi-track recorder (Zoom R24).
Especially with world music, you're likely to find tone intervals that match the layout of instruments, like the tuning of snare instruments and overtone intervals of brass instruments. And on button accordions (like the bayan), certain intervals may be easier or more logical than on piano accordions. So I also have a Roland FR-1xb...

PS: In many genres of music, you may want to control your tones while sounding. That is where (for keyboards) Aftertouch comes in. Please be aware that transmission and reception aren't tied together. All Fantoms can receive Aftertouch, but the keyboard (part) used in the Fantom-0 series doesn't send it. So you may find yourself having both a Fantom-0 and some other keyboard (synthesizer or mere master keyboard) with Aftertouch to control it. (Still cheaper and more luggable than an original Fantom.)

Yes Chris, I’m now learning online about Fantom 06 altho I want 76 keys but fantom 07 is not in my budget range. For other wind controller etc, I can’t buy with tight budget right now and I ll buy at least one wind controller because my fav ethnic instrument is Flutes. So did you add your cloud expansion? Is there any world instruments especially Native American Flutes on roland cloud? I think I can not check their cloud list without buying fantom.

 

[Vantrance]

Leaving aside the question about the subjectivity of whether you prefer Roland's SuperNATURAL Acoustic (modeled behavior) or Yamaha's (potentially better sampled) version of a particular sound, also keep in mind that the Juno DS has no SuperNATURAL Acoustic tones, and the Fantom-0 has only a limited selection of them, illustrated below (plus some keyboard sounds, which I'd put in a different category), while the (discontinued) FA has even fewer (basically just acoustic/electric bass, acoustic guitar, and ensemble strings). The Integra 7 module is what has the largest library of SuperNATURAL Acoustic, but of course, that's a module, not a keyboard.

Regardless, none of the boards you mentioned except the discontinued FA are actually workstations per se (i.e. having a multitrack, editable, linear sequencer). Though maybe that's not essential since you can get that function from the computer you intend to connect to eventually anyway, when you start using VSTs. Sonically, Juno DS is probably the weakest of the bunch, having neither the deep sampling and extensive selectable alternate articulations available in the Yamaha nor the SuperNATURAL modeling available in the Fantom-0.

Assuming you really do prefer that the keyboard have built-in workstation-style sequencing functions, if you want a workstation that meets your specs, I'd look at Korg Nautilus and Kurzweil K2700. I'd say Korg has the more extensive sonic palette (especially with all its optional downloadable libraries), while Kurz gives you the better MIDI controller for when you start working with VSTs. The Kurzweil also has the aftertouch Chris mentioned, which is nice... none of the other mentioned boards do. But these are a step up in price from what you're looking at. If you're willing to trade-off that aftertouch and the built-in audio interface (something I'll get back to), you could get the lower priced Kurzweil PC4 or PC4-7 which are in your existing price range. Another possibility might be the predecessor to the MODX, the MOXF8, which is still available new at some outlets. That model had a full workstation-style sequencer.

But now I'll throw you a curve and suggest you might also want to look at another kind of board entirely. Korg's arrangers also actually have workstation-style sequencers in them, and for world music, the PA700 Oriental specifically facilitates the use of quarter-tones which you find in a lot of non-western music. Comparing to the boards you mentioned, sampling depth and articulations is closer to Yamaha's than Roland's, though its DNC function also incorporates some things that are similar to some of Roland's SuperNATURAL Acoustic modeling. It doesn't have the audio interface built in, though. Which brings me to my last point, is that really essential? What is your need for it? In most cases, it is merely a convenience, you can always use an external interface with whatever you get.

Hello Scott, can PA700 add expansions later? I have read that we can’t add and have to stay with built in sounds.
And Although I like Nautilus and I found some interesting World Combi, my tide budget can not buy it yet right now.

 

[Biggles]

Hello Scott, can PA700 add expansions later? I have read that we can’t add and have to stay with built in sounds.
And Although I like Nautilus and I found some interesting World Combi, my tide budget can not buy it yet right now.

Yes (ish) although sound expansion memory is limited.

There are what Korg term Oriental versions of both the 700 and 1000 that may have the prime sounds that you seek in so do check them out.

 

[Chris Laarman]

Yes Chris, I’m now learning online about Fantom 06 altho I want 76 keys but fantom 07 is not in my budget range. For other wind controller etc, I can’t buy with tight budget right now and I ll buy at least one wind controller because my fav ethnic instrument is Flutes. So did you add your cloud expansion? Is there any world instruments especially Native American Flutes on roland cloud? I think I can not check their cloud list without buying fantom.

I think you can visit Roland Cloud, as you could have another ZEN-Core instrument, like the AE-30 I mentioned.

However, that site is not too helpful. There are (at least) two expansion packs regarding World Music. Sound demos provided, but without mentioning the instruments: SDZ038 World Instruments 1 and SDZ080 World Instruments 2. (Note these link to the Dutch version of the pages. Not my choice.) - No, I haven't installed my expansions yet. I haven't even found the opportunity to touch my Fantom-08 for months...
You can download the list of factory sounds through the product support page. I searched the document for "native american flute" and its elements, but didn't find any. See for yourself.
There are some flutes listed in the Sounds List of the AE-30, but that's not a keyboard...

Sometimes, you might be able to substitute instruments, and maybe tweak them. Like: in 1990 I didn't have a Banjo sound for my Roland U-20, but I used a Pizzicato Violin instead. And I may have used a Mandolin sound for some strummed string instrument from the Andes. (Forgot the name. Los Incas used it.)

You might also give up finding your sounds in expansions for hardware, and instead look for sounds in (expansions for) software synthesizers.

Finally, you may try to recreate the instruments using Physical Modeling (Yamaha speak) or Virtual Acoustics (Roland speak) if you can find a suitable synthesizer for that: you'd want a column of air that gets excited by blowing, with some additional parameters.

(Please correct me if I'm talking rubbish. My thoughts are elsewhere in music.)

 

[Chris Laarman]

Leaving aside the question about the subjectivity of whether you prefer Roland's SuperNATURAL Acoustic (modeled behavior) or Yamaha's (potentially better sampled) version of a particular sound, also keep in mind that the Juno DS has no SuperNATURAL Acoustic tones, and the Fantom-0 has only a limited selection of them, illustrated below (plus some keyboard sounds, which I'd put in a different category), while the (discontinued) FA has even fewer (basically just acoustic/electric bass, acoustic guitar, and ensemble strings). The Integra 7 module is what has the largest library of SuperNATURAL Acoustic, but of course, that's a module, not a keyboard.

Regardless, none of the boards you mentioned except the discontinued FA are actually workstations per se (i.e. having a multitrack, editable, linear sequencer). Though maybe that's not essential since you can get that function from the computer you intend to connect to eventually anyway, when you start using VSTs. Sonically, Juno DS is probably the weakest of the bunch, having neither the deep sampling and extensive selectable alternate articulations available in the Yamaha nor the SuperNATURAL modeling available in the Fantom-0.

Assuming you really do prefer that the keyboard have built-in workstation-style sequencing functions, if you want a workstation that meets your specs, I'd look at Korg Nautilus and Kurzweil K2700. I'd say Korg has the more extensive sonic palette (especially with all its optional downloadable libraries), while Kurz gives you the better MIDI controller for when you start working with VSTs. The Kurzweil also has the aftertouch Chris mentioned, which is nice... none of the other mentioned boards do. But these are a step up in price from what you're looking at. If you're willing to trade-off that aftertouch and the built-in audio interface (something I'll get back to), you could get the lower priced Kurzweil PC4 or PC4-7 which are in your existing price range. Another possibility might be the predecessor to the MODX, the MOXF8, which is still available new at some outlets. That model had a full workstation-style sequencer.

But now I'll throw you a curve and suggest you might also want to look at another kind of board entirely. Korg's arrangers also actually have workstation-style sequencers in them, and for world music, the PA700 Oriental specifically facilitates the use of quarter-tones which you find in a lot of non-western music. Comparing to the boards you mentioned, sampling depth and articulations is closer to Yamaha's than Roland's, though its DNC function also incorporates some things that are similar to some of Roland's SuperNATURAL Acoustic modeling. It doesn't have the audio interface built in, though. Which brings me to my last point, is that really essential? What is your need for it? In most cases, it is merely a convenience, you can always use an external interface with whatever you get.

Thank you for pointing me to the Oriental products of Korg. I wonder if I "need" the Pa4X Oriental. (There seems to be no Pa5X Oriental yet.)

 

[Chris Laarman]

Thank you for pointing me to the Oriental products of Korg. I wonder if I "need" the Pa4X Oriental. (There seems to be no Pa5X Oriental yet.)

I've just posted this over on Gearspace:

There are several vendors at AliExpress.com offering Korg PA4X arranger keyboards, 61- and 76-key versions, Oriental style, at low prices.

REMARKS: The descriptions are non-descriptive. One vendor has several instances of an offer. The photos don't show the "Oriental" description or "PA4X-OR". But then, one of the comparative videos on YouTube doesn't feature that on the Oriental one either.
- When looking for prices in or around the Netherlands, I noticed very poor availability at all. The PA5X is listed, but with long waiting times, and no Oriental edition yet.

So I have doubtfully accepted that offer of the multiple-instance vendor, clinging to Ali's buyer protection (that I have come to trust). It listed as €997,91 (including taxes and shipping), but I got an unclear rebate, and paid €824,72.
From memory: the listed offer ends November 13, and my delivery is due by December 3.

REMARK 2: There was another offer for a mere €400, to be shipped to me from France. I first accepted that, but Ali blocked my payment and emptied my cart, saying that there was something wrong with this vendor. As if I hadn't thought so.
- Apparently, both these vendors are not in the music trade, but buy (what's the expression in English?) left-over stocks.

See for yourselves.

 

[Vantrance]

I've just posted this over on Gearspace:

There are several vendors at AliExpress.com offering Korg PA4X arranger keyboards, 61- and 76-key versions, Oriental style, at low prices.

REMARKS: The descriptions are non-descriptive. One vendor has several instances of an offer. The photos don't show the "Oriental" description or "PA4X-OR". But then, one of the comparative videos on YouTube doesn't feature that on the Oriental one either.
- When looking for prices in or around the Netherlands, I noticed very poor availability at all. The PA5X is listed, but with long waiting times, and no Oriental edition yet.

So I have doubtfully accepted that offer of the multiple-instance vendor, clinging to Ali's buyer protection (that I have come to trust). It listed as €997,91 (including taxes and shipping), but I got an unclear rebate, and paid €824,72.
From memory: the listed offer ends November 13, and my delivery is due by December 3.

REMARK 2: There was another offer for a mere €400, to be shipped to me from France. I first accepted that, but Ali blocked my payment and emptied my cart, saying that there was something wrong with this vendor. As if I hadn't thought so.
- Apparently, both these vendors are not in the music trade, but buy (what's the expression in English?) left-over stocks.

See for yourselves.

I found pa4X ard 800USD at AliExpress. I don’t think it is true price. Something wrong if it is, I ll surely buy 4X 76 keys.

 

[Vantrance]

Yes (ish) although sound expansion memory is limited.

There are what Korg term Oriental versions of both the 700 and 1000 that may have the prime sounds that you seek in so do check them out.

I can’t get oriental version at my place but they have 700 and price is so fair. Could you tell me more about 700? It can compose a full song With sequencer? And I checked all the sounds from pa700 and there’re many world sounds even is not an oriental ver. But only one I need is Native American Flute ( NAF is so rare in hardware voice tho many software available for kontakt), only two I found are Yamaha SX FREE voice pack from CMS and Korg Kronos/Nautilus third party NAF voice pack. Nautilus even has one built in NAF voice.
Nautilus is not in my range and Sx700 hasn't full sequencer like PA700.
So Im learning toward 700 normal version. And If Nautilus price drop for black friday , I can buy at least

 

[Biggles]

You look to have answered your own question. The onboard sequencer works and is easy to use, for more info watch Part 8 of the Video Manual series for the Pa700

This is part 1

 

[Chris Laarman]

I've just posted this over on Gearspace:

There are several vendors at AliExpress.com offering Korg PA4X arranger keyboards, 61- and 76-key versions, Oriental style, at low prices.

REMARKS: The descriptions are non-descriptive. One vendor has several instances of an offer. The photos don't show the "Oriental" description or "PA4X-OR". But then, one of the comparative videos on YouTube doesn't feature that on the Oriental one either.
- When looking for prices in or around the Netherlands, I noticed very poor availability at all. The PA5X is listed, but with long waiting times, and no Oriental edition yet.

So I have doubtfully accepted that offer of the multiple-instance vendor, clinging to Ali's buyer protection (that I have come to trust). It listed as €997,91 (including taxes and shipping), but I got an unclear rebate, and paid €824,72.
From memory: the listed offer ends November 13, and my delivery is due by December 3.

REMARK 2: There was another offer for a mere €400, to be shipped to me from France. I first accepted that, but Ali blocked my payment and emptied my cart, saying that there was something wrong with this vendor. As if I hadn't thought so.
- Apparently, both these vendors are not in the music trade, but buy (what's the expression in English?) left-over stocks.

See for yourselves.

Ali has just canceled this purchase, as the vendor hasn't shipped in time. (Apparently this vendor is kept on a tighter rope than others.)