XP-30 octave shift

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Hi! I recently acquired a XP-30 and I'm fascinated with it. Something is baffling me, however.

I'm using performance layer splits to play left hand bass and another instrument on top of it. I would like to have the ability to octave up/down my right hand part while keeping the bass part where it is supposed to be. Is this doable? I remember owning a BK-7 for awhile and it had a toggle that allowed a specific part to be affected by effects/transposition etc. or not. Is there something along the same lines lurking in the XP?

Thanks!
Rick
 

happyrat1

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I have no answer to your question but I just wanted to welcome you to the forums.

This sounds like a typical RTFM question and today I'm feeling too lazy to hunt down the PDF and read thru it, but I'm sure the answer is buried in there somewhere.

Then again the XP-30 was a budget priced release from Roland and it very well may lack the feature you desire.

BTW, one other place where you can get a definitive answer is over on the Roland Clan Forums..

http://forums.rolandclan.com/

Just ask in their Classic Roland Synth Forum and someone will surely be able to answer you within 24 hours.

Gary ;)
 
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Hi! I read TFM but didn't stumble across my answer. Maybe there was an update to it I am unaware of. No idea.

I will check out the Clan forums. Thanks!
 
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Octave Shift on the XP-30 is covered in the right hand column of Page 59 of the manual. If following that procedure shifts both the left hand and right hand parts instead of just the right hand part of a split, then the XP-30 will not do what you want. The XP-30 is a ROMpler workstation, while the BK-9 is an arranger. What you want to do is a standard feature on arrangers, but is seldom available on ROMpler workstations. I have an XP-80, and the Octave Shift feature shifts the entire keyboard, not just one side of a split. The XP-30 appears to be the same.
 
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Octave Shift on the XP-30 is covered in the right hand column of Page 59 of the manual. If following that procedure shifts both the left hand and right hand parts instead of just the right hand part, then the XP-30 will not do what you want. The XP-30 is a ROMpler workstation, while the BK-9 is an arranger. What you want to do is a standard feature on arrangers, but is seldom available on ROMpler workstations.
Thanks, I read that page and was hoping for a work-around or something off the charts. I will probably set up a midi controller to work the bass channel then.
 

Fred Coulter

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There's an interesting discussion about the musicality of arrangers at http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=105509. There are some heated opinions involved.

A workstation is a fully programmable keyboard which includes serious sequencing capabilities. It's multitimbral (can play multiple sounds simultaneously) and gives a great deal of control to the musician, assuming they plan ahead.

An arranger is a keyboard with built in rhythm and accompanying parts, which usually includes some sort of chord recognition. It's generally a better instrument for winging it, although the higher tier keyboards include some programmability and the ability to import additional sounds and accompanying parts. Lower end arrangers include built in speakers, while upper end arrangers have add-in speakers.

As computers and keyboards become more sophisticated, there is more and more overlap between these categories. However, one way to determine if a keyboard is an arranger is if there's a dedicated set of accompiment buttons. Top end arrangers are reviewed in http://www.keyboardmag.com/gear/1183/top-end-arrangers-reviewed-korg-pa4x-and-yamaha-tyros5/55871, which also begins by addressing a bit of the differences.

A ROMpler is a keyboard which is primarily (or completely) based on playing back samples that were loaded into the keyboard. In some cases, additional sounds can be loaded, but that would be a higher tier instrument. A ROMpler would not include synthesis capabilities. This does not mean that a ROMpler is a lower tier instrument. All instruments are, by their very nature, limited in one way or another. My DX7, which was probably the most popular synthesizer in the world for a long time, created sounds by modulating sine waves with other sine waves (FM synthesis). It didn't have filters. It couldn't play any sort of sampled sounds. Prior to that, I used my father's synthesizer, which used subtractive synthesis, in which the keyboard produced a voltage which drove an oscillator. A filter then modified the sound of the oscillator by only letting certain sounds through. This is the style of synthesizer used by classic Yes, Emerson Lake & Palmer, Genesis and almost all rock from the 1970s. My Korg Kronos has nine different methods of generating sounds, and one of them would probably be classified as a ROMpler, since it plays back (probably modified versions) of sounds which were previously sampled. Other sound generation within the Kronos can be classified as FM synthesis and subtractive synthesis. But it, too, can't use all potential forms of sound generation.

And I just realized that sampled may be a term you don't understand, either. A sample is a recording of a sound. A sampler can play back that sound, transpose it up or down based on the key being pressed, loop certain portions of the sound so that it lasts longer than the recording, and modify the sample with other samples, filters, effects, and other modifications.

Hopefully this will help. But if it doesn't, feel free to ask more questions. There are people on this forum who are more knowledgeable, and more importantly can explain things better, than I.
 

SeaGtGruff

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A ROMpler can have synthesis capabilities, but not at the level available in a synthesizer-- although I believe that using samples to play virtual instruments is considered to be a type of synthesis, so in that sense a ROMpler is a synthesizer.

In any case, most ROMplers include waves for the stock synthesizer waveforms-- sine, triangle, sawtooth, square, pulse-- and will let you layer two such waves together, including the ability to adjust the octave range of each layer. Some of the preset waves may even include combinations of specific harmonics, usually the octave (2nd harmonic) or the fifth (3rd harmonic), or the ROMpler may have harmony features that can add an octave or fifth to every note played.

Some ROMplers also have features for modifying the ADSR envelope-- if not all of it, then parts of it-- as well as the ability to tune the individual notes of the scale, and the ability to modify an LPF's cutoff frequency and resonance. However, on some ROMplers these features might be accessible only via MIDI, not readily available via controls and menus.

EDIT: The reason I mentioned tuning individual notes is because two sounds could be layered together and then detuned from each other. Also, using MIDI allows layering more than two sounds together.

EDIT #2: LPFs = Low Pass Filters, used to remove harmonics above certain frequencies. A ROMpler might also have HPFs or High Pass Filters, used to remove harmonics below certain frequencies. And some might even have notch filters, for removing harmonics within a certain range of frequencies. These filters are used in "subtractive synthesis" so that an harmonically-rich waveform, e.g. a square wave, can be altered by removing some of the harmonics.
 
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SeaGtGruff

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Yes, the lines are blurry and zigzaggy, but I doubt that a ROMpler will never equal the capabilities of an analog synth. :)

Still, some amount of synthesis is often possible on many ROMplers-- although, as I mentioned, you might need to use MIDI to access those capabilities.
 

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Hopefully this will help. But if it doesn't, feel free to ask more questions. There are people on this forum who are more knowledgeable, and more importantly can explain things better, than I.
Hi Fred
Your answer was more than adequate thanks very much and once again this forum has come up trumps. You are a credit to this forum Fred.
Your explanation of these things makes it easier now for me to follow the conversation.
so in that sense a ROMpler is a synthesizer.
Hello Gruff ;)
Your knowledge on these matters is amazing. Thanks for sharing with me. Albiet some of it (most:confused:) is far too technical for me. Anyway you are a credit to the forum too.
 

happyrat1

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Actually the VAST Virtual Analog synthesis system on the Kurzweil PC3 line is exceptionally powerful and it is both a ROMpler as well as a Sampling Synth.

It is also a hideously complicated bitch to program but some people can literally make this thing sing like a choir of angels.

My Roland JD-Xi has both Amazing ROMpler voices as well as a fully independent Analog section.

Workstation/Arranger/Performance Keyboard/ROMpler/Sampler/Analog/Virtual Analog...

The lines are totally blurred out these days with every manufacturer cooking up its own unique recipe combining elements like items from a Chinese takeout menu.

To be honest, the only people I ever hear asking this question are newbies who are confused by marketing babblespeak.

Rather than trying to label a keyboard into a particular pigeonhole I simply classify them as to what individual features they represent.

Ultimately this discussion is pointless and misleading because it tends to reinforce the marketing stereotypes which are already meaningless with today's technologies.

Gary ;)
 
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happyrat1

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Can't you just download the choir of angels sample set?

Already did it years ago. I don't program the beast. I let other people program the voices and download the best of the best when worthwhile.

Actually I know quite a few people who make a good living selling Kurzweil patches which they have programmed.

Gary ;)
 
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My, my, my ! All these wonderful words, and I am not sure Ray's question ever really got answered.

Ray - An Arranger is a "One-man-bander"

A ROMpler plays back wave samples that are permanently burned into Read Only Memory (ROM) at the factory. That is, it is a ROM Player = ROMpler - as opposed to a "sampler" (which plays back wave samples loaded in volatile or flash memory by the user) or as opposed to a pure "synth" which generates sounds from basic raw wave forms (sine, saw, square, etc).

"Workstation" typically indicates advanced sequencing and/or tone editing capabilities - so either high end ROMplers or high end Arrangers can be "workstations".

And . . . as has been pointed out, modern day keyboards can be combinations of any of the above.

Gary - please excuse me for starting all this, but I was just trying to relieve the original poster's confusion over why his BK-9 would do what he wanted while his XP-30 would not. When you get into that kind of a discussion, you have to make some distinctions between the basic differences in keyboard types.
 
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Rayblewit

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My, my, my ! All these wonderful words, and I am not sure Ray's question ever really got answered.
Thanks Ted, I appreciate your imput. Your clarification makes good sense.
The good people here as well as yourself are just so enthusiastic to help each other. As for my question being answered . . I got more than I bargained for.
Cheers and thanks again. Let's all keep it nice:)
 

SeaGtGruff

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Rick, have you seen the references to "Coarse Tune" in the manual? It lets you adjust the pitch of a tone or part in steps ranging from -48 semitones (-4 octaves) to +48 semitones (+4 octaves). "Coarse Tune" is mentioned on the following pages of the manual: 79, 87, 91, 102, 127, 128, 141, 149, 151, 152, 153, 156, 174, 185, 189, 193, 195, 196, 200, 209.
 
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You are quite welcome, Ray !

Michael

I think he might be looking for an octave shift that he can toggle on and off in real time, as he plays - like the octave shifters on the 25 and 49 key DJ keyboards that allow the player to effectively extend the range in real time. If so, the menu accessible tunings in the XP units would not lend themselves to this very well. Although . . . there might be a way . . . .

Rick

Take a look at the tunings Michael has suggested and try setting up several consecutive user performances with the tunings you want and switch between them as you play. You would need to make sure that the Patch Remain switch is ON, so that you would not get glitches in the tones when you switched while playing. Patch Remain works as long as the effects do not change from one patch or performance to another.
 
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SeaGtGruff

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Ted, that's what someone at the Roland Clan forum suggested. :) I guess it's the only option, aside from playing the left-hand/bass part on a controller keyboard, as Rick indicated he would probably do.
 

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