Yamaha Sound Control and Faders

[adultlearner]

Does anyone here have a DGX-660 or another Yamaha digital piano? The two apps made and recommended by Yamaha are supposed to add on the abilities of control/manipulate files on the instrument. I tried the Faders and it seems that one indeed can add some special effect (such as a fading effect) that the instrument lacks. However, I could only make it work with a song uploaded to the piano, and I wonder if there's a way I can use these effects directly on live performance, such as changing the timbre of the style played or add some color to the sound I played on piano or adding a fading effect at the end of the song.... etc.? Thanks.

 

[SeaGtGruff]

I don't have any experience with the DGX-660, but on my PSR-E and related models the Sound Control app does affect the "live" keyboard parts-- that is, the Main Voice and (if I remember correctly) Dual Voice. If I'm not mistaken, a lady who used to post here some years ago had one of the earlier DGX models (DGX-640, perhaps?), and she once mentioned using the Sound Control app to change voices during live play in the same manner that she could do with her since-sold PSR-E433(?) model.

Note that there are other apps from third parties which let you sequence MIDI messages to your DGX-660. One app that used to have a free "lite" version is MIDI Designer, which lets you design your own virtual controller on your iPad or other supported tablet-- that is, you can put together your own choice of buttons, sliders, knobs, and so on, arranging and sizing them as you wish, and programming each one to send a particular type of MIDI message-- Program Change, Bank Select, Volume, Pan, Reverb Depth, Filter Cutoff, Filter Resonance, Attack Time, Release Time, and so on (whatever your keyboard can respond to, as specified in its MIDI Implementation Chart).

However, in general the DGX, YPG, PSR-E, PSR-EW, and YPT models don't allow received MIDI data to affect their keyboard parts-- that is, the Main Voice, Dual Voice, and Split Voice. But what you can do is set their Local Control function to "off" so they don't generate any sounds in response to the keys you play on them; make sure their Keyboard Out function is enabled; connect a computer or tablet and send their MIDI messages to an app; and have the app turn around and send the MIDI messages back to the keyboard's MIDI IN. In effect, you will be using the keyboard as a MIDI keyboard controller to play the keyboard as a MIDI sound module. This seems like an awful round-about way to play the keyboard, but what it does is allow you to modify the MIDI data in such a way that you can make use of the keyboard's full MIDI capabilities, such as creating splits and layers that use all 16 MIDI channels, or editing the voice parameters in ways that aren't possible using the keyboard's own panel controls and function menu.

 

[adultlearner]

Thank you, @SeaGtGruff for that valuable information! I did later on figure out the apps indeed could effect the main voice but not the auto accompany or style, which at least gives me “fading” function which the instrument lacks. It also bring up some effects to the “front line” so I can change them dynamically while I am playing. The shortcomings of these apps are the interface. Basically one screen only has two bars and you would have to turn pages or switch to different modes to get to other functions.

I will definitely try the apps and processes you mentioned.Thanks again!

 

[Biggles]

Yamaha produce quite a number of Apps but not all are compatible with each model of keyboard that they produce.

Also functionality varies within the Yamaha App and that is dependent upon the model number within the range ie using Smart Pianist will not provide a P45 with the same functions as a P515

 

[SeaGtGruff]

Thank you, @SeaGtGruff for that valuable information! I did later on figure out the apps indeed could effect the main voice but not the auto accompany or style, which at least gives me “fading” function which the instrument lacks. It also bring up some effects to the “front line” so I can change them dynamically while I am playing. The shortcomings of these apps are the interface. Basically one screen only has two bars and you would have to turn pages or switch to different modes to get to other functions.

I will definitely try the apps and processes you mentioned.Thanks again!

One thing I don't understand about the Yamaha Sound Control app is how it's able to affect the Main Voice as it does, because I haven't been able to figure out how to do this using MIDI messages.

Either there's a way to do it that Yamaha hasn't mentioned in their documentation-- such as with SysEx messages-- or they're using the trick of turning off Local Control and routing the MIDI from the keyboard to the app and back to the keyboard such that the keyboard is being used as though it were a MIDI keyboard controller to play itself via MIDI as though it were a MIDI sound module.

It's certainly possible that they're using SysEx messages, and there are documented XG messages which are used for this very purpose. The problem is, the DGX, YPG, PSR-E, PSR-EW, and YPT models use XGlite, not the full version of XG, and the system parameter addresses which are listed in the XG documentation don't seem to work for the XGlite models. So it may just be a question of figuring out what the equivalent addresses are on the XGlite models.

As for the trick of using the keyboard as a MIDI keyboard controller to play itself as a MIDI sound module, it's a pretty simple thing to do, and I use it with DAWs on my computer to do things like creating 16 independent zones on the keyboard-- one zone per MIDI channel-- which can then be used for splits and layers, such as layering three or more voices together in a "right-hand zone," or layering two or more voices together in a "left-hand zone," or splitting the keyboard into three or more zones.

 

[adultlearner]

Yes,Sound Control can (seem to) totally take the control and produce sounds the DGX-660 keyboard itself would never be able to. So it doe feel like it’s only a matter of the sophistication of the software/apps that can add a lot of functions that are not built in. On that note, what (ideally free) app that has a better interface than sound control and faders you can recommend for me to try out, @SeaGtGruff ? Btw, Faders is more sophiscated than sound control but unfortunately have similar interface.

 

[adultlearner]

@Biggles Smart Pianist as well as Digital Piano Controller don’t work with DGX at all

 

[SeaGtGruff]

If you want to be able to design your own interface, then you might want to check out the MIDI Designer app. In addition to being able to select, position, and size the controls of your choice, you can create multiples pages or screens of controls and switch between them.

 

[adultlearner]

OK thanks. What I hope to have for now is basically a synthesizer with functions like EQ, fader, some practical effects, etc. on the same screen that I can connect to my keyboard so I can apply some of the effects easily during live play. For post production editing, we have more flexibility on a computer, I think.

 

[adultlearner]

@SeaGtGruff I think you said that it's yet to find out how to let DGX-660 "give up the control" so a software or app can be used to control the voice, fading, reverb... all things that through the instrument have to be set in advance (or if using buttons available a multi-step process). Just to confirm. I am hoping to have a way to control/make some changes to various effects "dynamically" while I'm playing. I thought I got an answer of no way, but are you absolutely sure before I give up the idea? Thanks

 

[SeaGtGruff]

I don't know how Yamaha does it in their Sound Control app, so I don't know if there's a way to do this using SysEx messages as is possible with other models (PSR-S, etc.).

However, you can do it by using the trick I mentioned, or playing the keyboard as though it were a controller and feeding its MIDI back to itself as though it were a sound module. This involves turning off the Local Control so the keyboard doesn't make any sounds when you play it, then using an app to receive the keyboard's MIDI and send that MIDI back to the keyboard. Basically, the sounds are no longer generated by the "keyboard parts" (Main Voice, Dual Voice, and Split Voice), but are instead generated by the "song parts" (MIDI channels 1 through 16). This lets you make use of the keyboard's full MIDI capabilities, by which I mean being able to play up to 16 voices at once, and being able to use every type of MIDI message that the keyboard is designed to respond to.

So yes, you can do what I think you're hoping to do, but there will probably be a few more steps required that just finding an app that has a UI that you like. And for maximum flexibility you might need to use a computer or laptop rather than just a tablet or smartphone, although that depends on what apps are available and what they're able to do.

I need to turn in early tonight, but I'll post more about it later.

 

[adultlearner]

Thank you, @SeaGtGruff ! Your suggested solutions sound promising although I have so many questions still. For one, how do I turn off the Local Control so the keyboard doesn't make any sounds when you play it?

 

[Biggles]

Function Menu > MIDI > Local Control.

If you check the Computer and or MIDI manuals there may also be key combinations that turn Local Control on and off easily.

 

[adultlearner]

Well I tried and was able to mute my keyboard, but with a few apps including the Yamaha's sound controller and Faders as well as a few third party ones, I could get the keyboard into the app as an input source, get it processed and output back to the keyboard speakers. When I played the keyboard in the apps however, the voice did get output to the keyboard. I have blue midi connection by the way.

 

[SeaGtGruff]

Was the app playing the keyboard's voice, or was it using the keyboard's MIDI to play a voice of its own?

If it was playing the keyboard's voice, then the keyboard may have been broadcasting its audio over Bluetooth-- which I didn't realize it could do, and which it should not be doing if Local Control is turned off.

So I'm guessing the app was probably using the keyboard's MIDI to play a voice of its own, but it would be tough to say for sure without knowing what the app was.

There's an app called Midiflow (https://www.midiflow.com/) that lets you route MIDI between different apps or MIDI gear, and it should let you bounce the MIDI back to the keyboard without triggering any sounds in the app-- although it will let you trigger sounds in other apps if you want to.

 

[adultlearner]

You know I have installed quite a few apps and tried a few. Now I can’t even remember which one it worked the way I described. The Yamaha spins control and Faders didn’t seem to like turning local control off, and they just went unresponsive altogether. At least one of the apps I tried seemed to be able to connect to my keyboard at least. When I played something on the app built in keyboard, merge voice came out from the speakers of my DGX. But I couldn’t play on DGX, send what I play to the app, get it processed and then receive back to the speakers of DGX, as you explained or at least as I understood what you said... I will give the app you mentioned a try. Thanks @SeaGtGruff

 

[SeaGtGruff]

What you need to do is set the app to receive MIDI from the keyboard, then also set it to send MIDI to the keyboard.

The specifics on how to do this will vary from app to app, and you may need to pay attention to what you're telling the app to send to the keyboard.

For instance, if you're using a DAW or other multi-track app to do it, you'll need to set up a MIDI track to receive MIDI from the keyboard, then also set that same track to send MIDI to the keyboard. You might need to mind which type of MIDI track you're adding to the DAW project, because some DAWs split MIDI tracks into two types-- a track that receives MIDI and uses it to play a virtual instrument or plugin, in which case you might not be able to select an external sound module for sending the MIDI to; and a generic MIDI track, which should let you select an external sound module (that is, your keyboard) for the MIDI Out device.

 

[adultlearner]

I tried an app called Model D. Got so close to it but still not there. Setting the Bluetooth modi device which is my keyboard as both input and output, I ended being able to play my DGX and make it sound on the app, and play the app built in app and have it sound on the DGX. Tricky business

 

[SeaGtGruff]

I believe Model D is a virtual instrument, which means it doesn't have the capability to bounce the MIDI from the keyboard back to the keyboard. Of course, a virtual instrument app such as Model D will let you "add" external sounds to your keyboard, which is also very useful.

Midiflow should be ideal for bouncing the keyboard's MIDI back to the keyboard.

 

[adultlearner]

Will explore Midiflow. Looking at the app’s documentation, it talks a lot about set ups, but what’s the control interface Like in a live performance setting? Would you be able to access the familiar sliders, buttons and knobs etc. handily? another question I have about this process is whether the keyboard output is being taken in as one channel.? Suppose I have a style loaded then play both hands, would the output go to different channels?