Deleting files from SD card - 7500

[Mozartian]

Concerning WAV files recorded to memory:

I don't see anything in the manual about saving WAV files to the SD card - only to an attached computer via the Data Manager (page E-121). I'm guessing they are saved only to one of the 5 on-board memory files.

Is it possible to save a WAV file to the SD card? If it is, I would have expected the process to be explained on page E-138 where it lists the type of data to be stored on an SD card. WAV files were not listed.

Referring to page E-141 of the manual, when I wanted to delete the content of file #3 (or any of the 3 file #'s I had content on, at step 4 the screen read [---] indicating no file. Pushing the up/down arrows or scrolling the wheel had no affect on selecting a file # despite the manual saying it should. I think my problem was thinking I had saved my WAV files to the SD card when in fact I did not. Consequently, nothing was on th SD card to delete.

The way I was able to delete a WAV file from on-board memory was to press the Audio/Play button, select the file I wanted to delete (clear) FIRST, hold down the Function and Select button together (as before), and scroll down to the second item which is "Clear". So, in other words, the file number needs to be selected FIRST, and then the 2-button push, scroll to "clear". The word "delete" does not appear.

Also of interest (to me, anyway) when I enter the "Record" mode and then press the blinking button to record, if there is something already on the file I'm about to record on, the screen will ask "Overwrite - yes or no". When I answered "yes" I expected to record on the same file it asked me to overwrite. However (if I noted things correctly) it recorded on the next available file and left the file I started on intact.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

 

[Ted Nicoson]

Mozartian

While some prefer to record audio to a PC or MAC based DAW, I prefer to record to my Fostex 8-tracker. It has better quality A/D converters than most keyboards and a lot of PC's and records 6 track hours directly to a 2 Gb Compact Flash card. It will even sync the audio to a MIDI clock, records in either WAV or AIFF format and will upload its data to a PC via USB. So, I really had not spent much time with the WK-7500's audio recording features until last night. I decided to give it a try to see what you were talking about. I only saw the problems you were describing a couple of times early on and then figured out what I was doing. From that point on, the actual record and playback worked fine. Then I ran into a whole different problem.

First off, your comments about the WK-7500's memory - the manual is very confusing about this. In one paragraph they talk about the SD memory card and than a few paragraph's later, they are talking about the keyboard's memory. When it comes to audio, there is ONLY the SD card. The keyboard has internal memory only for the MIDI stuff - MIDI song files, rhythms, etc. It has no internal memory for audio files. Pull the SD card, and you can not do any audio stuff. Any attempt to record or playback audio without the SD card results in a "NO CARD" error message. When the manual discusses audio work at the keyboard, it refers to it as SD card memory, and when it discusses audio work from the PC via the Data Manager, it refers to it as keyboard memory - but it's the same memory - the SD card.

The few times I got erratic results like you describe reminded me of several other threads on this and other forums, but more with regard to live performance problems - and that being - with the rubbery buttons on these modern keyboards, it is quite easy to press a button, but not far enough, and not get what you asked for it, and not immediately realize it, if you were not closely watching the display. I am not saying that that is your problem, but for me, every time I ran into problems, I realized I had pressed one or more buttons while looking in the manual and not watching the display. Once I started verifying each button press on the display, I had no further problems. Everything worked just like the manual said it should, but then I decided to try a few audio things with the Data Manager. I had used the Data Manager a couple of months ago to load rhythm files from the Casio-Europe site into the User Rhythm slots and into the MUSICDAT folder on the SD card with no problem. Last night I recorded a couple of very simple things and played them back just fine, then I tried loading a Windows WAV file (the TADA WAV) with the Data Manager and from that point on no audio files on the card would work. Trying to playback my recordings or the Casio demo audio file or even trying to record a new file just resulted in an "Error: Format" message and I did have to reformat the SD card to get it working again. I tried over a dozen times with always the same result. I can record and playback audio all I want on the keyboard itself, and I can do whatever MIDI file work I want with the Data Manager and have no problems at all, but as soon as I use the Data Manager with audio files, it ruins the card for any further audio work and I have to reformat. Once the Data Manager ruins the card for audio, all the MIDI stuff still works fine, but of course I lose all that when I reformat the card so I can use it for audio again. I tried this with 4 or 5 different SD cards from several different manufacturers, but always got the same results. This is why I say I can not be certain if the problems you described were due to what I said, or if you have a different problem. At this point, I am of the opinion that audio recording and audio data manipulation with the Data Manager on the WK-7500 is a very convoluted, unstable, and unreliable process.

Here again, this is really no show stopper for me as I prefer to use the Fostex for audio work, but I have sympathy for those who had planned to use the WK-7500 as a strictly stand alone device. In that respect, I have to agree with Gary (happrat1) - most of us that have been at this for a while have learned not to make those kind of plans. So far, I have only tried this from my Vista desktop. I need to get the Data Manager loaded onto my Win-7 laptop and try it from there to see if it is a Vista problem. That would certainly not surprise me. I had thought about trying to just load WAV files directly to the MUSICDAT folder with Windows Explorer, but then I remembered you have to use the Data Manager so that it can convert the file format to Casio WAV format as it transfers it. Actually, I think the Casio WAV format IS the default Windows WAV format with a different filename extension, but that is experimenting for another day. I'll keep you posted. Good luck with your problem.

 

[happyrat1]

Actually I dunno about the 7500 but on the XW-P1 WAV files have to be resampled with an oddball 44.1 KHz sample rate. At least I seem to recall Mike Martin bringing it up over on Casiomusicforums.com

As you mentioned, myself and many others don't bother with using the built in sequencers and players in our keyboards and rely on the computer instead to do all our audio and MIDI fiddling.

Gary

EDIT: Looking at the manual for the WK-7500 It seems that MP3 and WAV filetypes are not supported at all on the SD card.

http://support.casio.com/pdf/008/Web_CTK7000_WK7500E1B.pdf

Refer to the important note at the top of page E-142

You can use the Digital Keyboard to play music files you
saved to a memory card with your computer.
• Supported music files are SMF format 0 or 1 MIDI files
(MID).
• Playback of audio files (WAV, MP3, etc.) is not
supported.

 

[Mozartian]

Mozartian

While some prefer to record audio to a PC or MAC based DAW, I prefer to record to my Fostex 8-tracker. It has better quality A/D converters than most keyboards and a lot of PC's and records 6 track hours directly to a 2 Gb Compact Flash card. It will even sync the audio to a MIDI clock, records in either WAV or AIFF format and will upload its data to a PC via USB. So, I really had not spent much time with the WK-7500's audio recording features until last night. I decided to give it a try to see what you were talking about. I only saw the problems you were describing a couple of times early on and then figured out what I was doing. From that point on, the actual record and playback worked fine. Then I ran into a whole different problem.

First off, your comments about the WK-7500's memory - the manual is very confusing about this. In one paragraph they talk about the SD memory card and than a few paragraph's later, they are talking about the keyboard's memory. When it comes to audio, there is ONLY the SD card. The keyboard has internal memory only for the MIDI stuff - MIDI song files, rhythms, etc. It has no internal memory for audio files. Pull the SD card, and you can not do any audio stuff. Any attempt to record or playback audio without the SD card results in a "NO CARD" error message. When the manual discusses audio work at the keyboard, it refers to it as SD card memory, and when it discusses audio work from the PC via the Data Manager, it refers to it as keyboard memory - but it's the same memory - the SD card.

The few times I got erratic results like you describe reminded me of several other threads on this and other forums, but more with regard to live performance problems - and that being - with the rubbery buttons on these modern keyboards, it is quite easy to press a button, but not far enough, and not get what you asked for it, and not immediately realize it, if you were not closely watching the display. I am not saying that that is your problem, but for me, every time I ran into problems, I realized I had pressed one or more buttons while looking in the manual and not watching the display. Once I started verifying each button press on the display, I had no further problems. Everything worked just like the manual said it should, but then I decided to try a few audio things with the Data Manager. I had used the Data Manager a couple of months ago to load rhythm files from the Casio-Europe site into the User Rhythm slots and into the MUSICDAT folder on the SD card with no problem. Last night I recorded a couple of very simple things and played them back just fine, then I tried loading a Windows WAV file (the TADA WAV) with the Data Manager and from that point on no audio files on the card would work. Trying to playback my recordings or the Casio demo audio file or even trying to record a new file just resulted in an "Error: Format" message and I did have to reformat the SD card to get it working again. I tried over a dozen times with always the same result. I can record and playback audio all I want on the keyboard itself, and I can do whatever MIDI file work I want with the Data Manager and have no problems at all, but as soon as I use the Data Manager with audio files, it ruins the card for any further audio work and I have to reformat. Once the Data Manager ruins the card for audio, all the MIDI stuff still works fine, but of course I lose all that when I reformat the card so I can use it for audio again. I tried this with 4 or 5 different SD cards from several different manufacturers, but always got the same results. This is why I say I can not be certain if the problems you described were due to what I said, or if you have a different problem. At this point, I am of the opinion that audio recording and audio data manipulation with the Data Manager on the WK-7500 is a very convoluted, unstable, and unreliable process.

Here again, this is really no show stopper for me as I prefer to use the Fostex for audio work, but I have sympathy for those who had planned to use the WK-7500 as a strictly stand alone device. In that respect, I have to agree with Gary (happrat1) - most of us that have been at this for a while have learned not to make those kind of plans. So far, I have only tried this from my Vista desktop. I need to get the Data Manager loaded onto my Win-7 laptop and try it from there to see if it is a Vista problem. That would certainly not surprise me. I had thought about trying to just load WAV files directly to the MUSICDAT folder with Windows Explorer, but then I remembered you have to use the Data Manager so that it can convert the file format to Casio WAV format as it transfers it. Actually, I think the Casio WAV format IS the default Windows WAV format with a different filename extension, but that is experimenting for another day. I'll keep you posted. Good luck with your problem.

Thanks, Ted.

This problem we discussed is partly solved by the arrival of another problem. My sweet wife informed me that she doesn't really care for the idea of a studio in the house. She is loud sound averse. Especially practice noises when I have to repeat phrases over and over to get them right. And playing clarinet more than keyboard, there is no way I can turn down the volume. So just today I received my Tascam DR-40 recorder. This allows me to go to one of our very nearby rec centers and occupy a room and play and record to my heart's content. Isn't it great how solutions to problems happen? Although I bought this particular (7500) keyboard in part because of its mic input, I gradually learned that it is not my best tool for what I want to do for several reasons: 1) It only accepts dynamic mics, but condensers are better mics for recording clarinet. Then I got a mini mixer/equalizer with phantom power for my condenser mics to plug into the "instrument" input on the 7500. That will still allow me to record the clarinet WAV file onto the 7500's SD card that I understand is somehow synchronized (using one of the two syncing optons - click or whatever the other one is - for keyboard accompaniment. I haven't tried that yet but plan to soon. I'll be able to do this when sweetie runs her errands or is out playing. The Tascam will be my main "outside the house" remote location practice recorder. So this is just as well given the conventional wisdom that the 7500's WAV file system is a bit quirky. For whatever its worth, I haven't mastered the Tascam's file system yet, either. But its only been a day. At least the Tascam produces normal WAV files or MP3's that don't need any conversion to be moved back and forth across systems.

Back to my initial issue with the keyboard's instruction manual and file management, the LCD on the keyboard clearly indicates the SD card logo when I perform record functions from the instrument input jack - but it fails to recognize anything is on the card when I attempt to perform the delete function as described in the manual. What you said about WAV files ONLY recording to the card in view of the SD card logo displayed on the screen makes sense. The treatment of the data handling functions by the instruction manual does not. The "clear" function I described above DOES appear to delete files from the card or at least the index to data on the card. I need to look at those files on the computer to see what is REALLY there. And the incomplete button pushing synddrome? I am definitely insane, because insanity is described as doing the same thing over again expecting different results. When I identify a problem, it is only after numerous repartitions of button pushing sequences. The odds are slim that I have incomplete button pushes multiple times in a row. Insanity has its benefits.

 

[Mozartian]

EDIT: Looking at the manual for the WK-7500 It seems that MP3 and WAV filetypes are not supported at all on the SD card.

http://support.casio.com/pdf/008/Web_CTK7000_WK7500E1B.pdf

Refer to the important note at the top of page E-142

I am gradually learning not to trust the manual. When I record into the "instrument in" jack, the SD Card logo consumes the entire width of the readout display, and a WAV file is recorded and retained and remains when the instrument is turned off or unplugged. I think it is not a "standard" WAV file. It does need to be converted before it is recognized by a computer. And vice versa. I understand a computer generated WAV file needs to be converted by the Data Manager before it is recognized by the keyboard? Do I have that right?

 

[Ted Nicoson]

OK ! Let's go back to your original post and take it one item at a time:

I don't see anything in the manual about saving WAV files to the SD card - only to an attached computer via the Data Manager (page E-121). I'm guessing they are saved only to one of the 5 on-board memory files.
Is it possible to save a WAV file to the SD card? If it is, I would have expected the process to be explained on page E-138 where it lists the type of data to be stored on an SD card. WAV files were not listed.

There is no "SAVE" function for audio files. Audio files are recorded directly to the SD card. When you press the Audio Record button to stop recording, the display shows "Please wait" while the operating system puts an "End of File" marker at the end of the recorded data in order to complete the file and properly terminate it. So pressing the Audio Record button to end the recording is essentially the "SAVE" function.

To attest to this, Page E-121 of the manual states:

"The audio recording operation performs memory card
delete and write operations simultaneously. Because of
this, you may not be able to record correctly on certain
types of memory cards. If you experience recording
problems, try changing the file number of the recording or
try using a different memory card."

If audio recording were made to some internal temporary memory with a leisurely after-the-fact copy to the SD card, then this would not be a concern. Any old card would work. The fact that it is a concern indicates that recording is being made directly to the SD card in real time and requires a fairly decent quality card with respectable data speed capabilities.

Referring to page E-141 of the manual, when I wanted to delete the content of file #3 (or any of the 3 file #'s I had content on, at step 4 the screen read [---] indicating no file. Pushing the up/down arrows or scrolling the wheel had no affect on selecting a file # despite the manual saying it should. I think my problem was thinking I had saved my WAV files to the SD card when in fact I did not. Consequently, nothing was on th SD card to delete.

The "DELETE" function on Page E-141 is strictly for MIDI type data (Standard MIDI Files, Pattern Files, Rhythm Files, Registration Files, etc.). If you have been trying to use this to delete audio files and have not saved any MIDI data, this is why you are not seeing any thing. If you had saved any MIDI data, that is all you would see there, but not audio. When it comes to file management, it is like this keyboard has two entirely separate operating systems - one for MIDI type files and one for audio files.

The way I was able to delete a WAV file from on-board memory was to press the Audio/Play button, select the file I wanted to delete (clear) FIRST, hold down the Function and Select button together (as before), and scroll down to the second item which is "Clear". So, in other words, the file number needs to be selected FIRST, and then the 2-button push, scroll to "clear". The word "delete" does not appear.

There are only two ways to delete audio files from the card - overwrite with a new audio file or use the "Clear" function.

Also of interest (to me, anyway) when I enter the "Record" mode and then press the blinking button to record, if there is something already on the file I'm about to record on, the screen will ask "Overwrite - yes or no". When I answered "yes" I expected to record on the same file it asked me to overwrite. However (if I noted things correctly) it recorded on the next available file and left the file I started on intact.

Not sure what is going on here. If you answer "yes" to the "Overwrite ?" question, then that is exactly what it should do. You should be talking about the "Audio Record" function here with the "Audio Record" button. If you are talking about just the "Record" function with just the "Record" button, here again, that is strictly for MIDI files and has nothing to do with audio files. If you want to record and playback audio files, you must use the "Audio Record" and "Audio Playback" buttons.

Hope this helps !

 

[Ted Nicoson]

SEE PREVIOUS POST ABOVE TOO ! ! !

And now, for your most recent question:

I am gradually learning not to trust the manual. When I record into the "instrument in" jack, the SD Card logo consumes the entire width of the readout display, and a WAV file is recorded and retained and remains when the instrument is turned off or unplugged. I think it is not a "standard" WAV file. It does need to be converted before it is recognized by a computer. And vice versa. I understand a computer generated WAV file needs to be converted by the Data Manager before it is recognized by the keyboard? Do I have that right?

Back in the days of the WK-3XXX keyboards (Back then, we were fortunate enough not to have audio to worry about.) There were a set of programs called IDES, which stood for Internet Data Expansion System.. They were keyboard specific, and you had to make sure you downloaded the correct one for your keyboard. They essentially did the same thing the Data Manager does now, only without the audio functions. All of the different Casio files (tones, rhythm, MIDI, etc ) would work on most or all of the keyboards, and all had .ckf extensions. The IDES program knew the difference and would make the proper conversion as it downloaded it to the keyboard. For instance, when my IDES program would download a .ckf rhythm file to my WK-3800, it made the proper format conversion for the WK-3800 and changed the file extension to .Z00, which indicated a WK-3800 rhythm file. A WK3800 tone file would have a different .ZXX extension and a WK3800 registration file a different one yet. That was all handled by the IDES program. That way, the Casio engineers only had to generate one set of files for all the different keyboards plus a few conversion programs that did "on-site" conversions. Today's Data Manager will take those same files (either .ckf or .ZXX - except for tone files. The new tone sets can not be changed.) and convert and download them to the new CTK6X00/7X00 and WK6X00/WK7X00 keyboards. It will take a .ckf or Z00 rhythm file and convert it to the new .AC7 rhythm file format as it downloads it to the new keyboard. It will do the same thing for audio files. If the audio file is already in the correct format, it just downloads it to the SD card, but if it is not in the correct format, it will do the necessary conversion first. As I mentioned in my previous post, I think the correct format is the Windows default WAV format with a Casio specific file extension.

 

[Mozartian]

Thanks. The light is gradually dawning a la Also Sprach Zarathustra.

 

[Ted Nicoson]

The Deodato version is the best experience !

 

[Ted Nicoson]

Gary (happyrat1)

I had received an email that you had replied to this thread, but I don't see it, so I assume you deleted it. Anyway, I think you were having the same problem that Mozartian has been having. All the stuff on page 142 of the manual deals with MIDI recordings and completely ignores audio recording. If you back up to page 121, you will find the procedures for audio recording, and like you said about the XW-P1, generates a Casio proprietary WAV file. The resampling you referenced is taken care of by the Data Manager for the WK-7500. From looking at the manual, it's like they designed a MIDI only keyboard and wrote the manual accordingly, then at the last minute decided to include an audio recorder and inserted those instructions in the middle of the manual, but never went back to update the MIDI recording section which not only ignores audio recording, but denies that it exists. That's part of what I meant when I told Mozartian that it's like this keyboard has two separate operating systems - one for audio and one for MIDI - and never the twain shall meet - not even in the manual. The Roland Juno-Gi is similar. It is basically an audio-only keyboard with a MIDI file player instead of a MIDI sequencer, but in the manual, those two functions do not reference each other at all, so those new to these dual-function (audio/MIDI) keyboards get lost in the manual trying to figure out how to playback an audio file from the MIDI player section of the manual, and vice versa.

 

[Mozartian]

The Deodato version is the best experience !

There is nearly the same amount of technology required to create those sounds and videos as getting the spacecraft up. Passing on that technology to others is the challenge as the Casio manuals are proving.