Minimal live rig

[PrestoColumbus]

I may have opportunity to play in a very informal group (me a couple of acoustic guitars), simple sing-a-longs for "wine and beer enthusiasts" to enjoy

The host has a small PA that has a bluetooth input, the sort of party trick you setup to play some background music.

So I was thinking, midi controller --usb--> <phone/ipad--app-like-pianoteq> --bluetooth->small PA to play along with the acoustic unplugged.

super small party like maybe 20 people

I'm fairly sure this would work with my existing gear, but I was thinking my 88 key controller might be too much. What's the minimum keyboard size you guys would take to something like this?

 

[happyrat1]

49 or 61 keys should cover the sort of stuff you'd be playing. A simple arranger would also be an asset. Bluetooth audio is simply not fast enough to handle live performances. Either hook up a camera connection kit and powered USB hub and the associated spaghetti wiring or cart along a Yamaha PSR or a Casio CTX and you're up and ready to gig in an instant.

 

[anotherscott]

As happyrat said, bluetooth audio won't cut it. You'll have to bring a small amp; or confirm with your bandmates and/or venue that you can hard-wire to whatever else is there and then bring the appropriate cabling. Are your bandmates plugging vocal microphones into something? Does it have enough inputs to take your keyboard sound as well?

It sounds like your only current board is the 88, so you're thinking about buying a new board for this? If your 88 has a weighted (hammer) action, going to a 61-or-less controller will also give you a very different feeling action, which you might not appreciate, especially for piano playing. (For that matter, even the quality of those non-hammer actions can vary a lot.)

As for how many keys you need, try it at home. Use some masking tape to create whatever smaller-sized playing area you want to consider, play some of your songs, and see how frustrated you are by not being able to play outside that range. It probably won't take long for you to determine the minimum number of keys you'd be comfortable with.

ETA: Assuming you are indeed considering buying something new for this, happyrat's suggestion of a board with built-in speakers (whether arranger or not) might be worth considering, if the volume of the gig is low enough that its internal speakers will be sufficient. Be aware that the ability to play your iPad sounds through those speakers cannot be assumed... you'd have to choose a board with either aux/line inputs or class-compliant USB audio interface. Otherwise, through those speakers, you'd only be able to play the sounds that are built into the board. (And either way, again, you'd have to keep in mind, not just how many keys, but how you feel about playing piano on those keys.) There's also the question of budget. How much it's worth spending might also depend on what additional/future uses you might have for whatever you buy, beyond this one party.

 

[Biggles]

Super small, super lightweight.

Korg Kross 2 with 61 keys ( or a Roland Juno which is not much heavier ).

The Kross can run on batteries, there is an inbuilt battery compartment.

plus

A Boss Katana Mini

Alternatively:-

A Roland Street Ex battery powered 25+25W amp will cater for jams and small venues, plus if the acoustic folks go electric you have the power to contribute.

Another battery powered Amp is the Mackie Thump Go, 200W peak.

If you do look at arrangers, avoid Yamaha PSR-E series. The PSR-SX is a vastly better range, with the 600 & 700 reasonably priced.

A 88 key alternative is a Korg EX20, which has arranger features and built in amp/speakers.

Another possible Korg is the 61 key EK 50, with arranger features, inbuilt amp and speakers 2x10W.

 

[Pete The Greek]

Agree RE the Roland Street Cube EX (I have one although have not needed to run it on battery power). This will give much better and louder sound than any portable keyboard's built-in sound. Main drawback is the cost (and the big wall wart if using AC).

In theory you could get a much cheaper but "loud enough" portable Bluetooth speaker AND USE THE 1/8" AUXILIARY INPUT. This eliminates the unacceptable latency of Bluetooth audio (usually).

But two huge caveats:

1. Sometimes it doesn't eliminate the latency to use the aux input. Example: SONOS. Someone gave me an otherwise nice used one. It sounds nice with recorded music. But it has a minimum latency of 75 milliseconds on the aux input! So it's useless for keyboard amplification.

2. Some of these speakers have a "feature" which mutes the aux input if no signal is detected after a while (probably for power saving I would guess). This means that you'll have dropped sound at the beginning of a song if the speaker has "timed out" on you (you'll be playing, but not hearing anything until the speaker "wakes up"). I don't know how to find out whether a speaker has this feature (the one I got that had this "feature" did not document the feature nor provide instructions on how to turn it off).

So if you need more volume than the keyboard's built-in speakers can generate, bite the bullet and buy a real amplifier (or test thoroughly before the gig).

Good luck!

 

[happyrat1]

Juno DS also runs on batteries in a pinch.

 

[anotherscott]

I don't think the OP was concerned with battery power, but since it has come up, I like the Alto Busker for a battery powered amp.

Getting back to the idea of getting a board that has built-in speakers (which I talked about in the bottom "ETA" section of post 3), they vary a lot as well. Some keyboards' built-in speakers would probably have a hard time keeping up even with a couple of unplugged guitarists entertaining 20 people in a singalong. Others would be able to handle that.

 

[Pete The Greek]

What is the make and model of the 88 key controller? IF it has hammer action (i.e. it's heavy) then perhaps the Korg Liano would be a good alternative for this situation.

Yes it's also 88 keys but
- only 13 lbs (because no hammer action)
- very playable (I've done several multi-hour small room gigs with mine; the more I play it the more I like it; I've not enjoyed other semi-weighted or synth-action keyboards as much)
- fits across the back seat of the car, even in the gig bag (YMMV)
- inexpensive (pre tariff anyway)
- has nice grand piano and EP sounds,
- supports USB midi and audio (it works great with Pianoteq)
- has a decent inexpensive unofficial gig bag option (Yamaha YBNP-76),
- runs on batteries if you need it to (which is a great backup option since the power supply is external)
- should put out enough volume to play alongside acoustic (not amplified) guitars.
- has a rudimentary music rest which will hold your iPad etc (one less piece of gear to haul)

If you have to amplify it externally you just need an adapter or special cable to go from 1/8" stereo to dual 1/4" mono (not expensive) - or maybe just a 1/7" stereo cable, depending on the amp.

 

[anotherscott]

This may be a bit of a tangent, but at least in current gear, my personal suggestions for when you need to bring just a single, lightweight board are...

* Liano
... if 88 keys is not too big for the space, and if I only need piano/EP or I'm going to get sounds from iPad

* Yamaha CK61
... if 61 keys will do, and I may want more sounds/flexibility (though unlike the Liano, it takes a little tweaking to get the pianos and EPs sounding/playing satisfactorily for me)

* Casio CT-S500
... if I don't want to even have to worry about bringing a stand (you can wear it with a guitar strap)
... possibly for using drum rhythms
... if I'm playing LH bass, I can send it out one side, apart from all my other sounds
(but you lose a bunch of sounds, functionality, and real-time front-panel controls from the CK)

I have gigged with all of those, though not necessarily without being paired with another board. Another I would consider is the Casio CT-S1-76, if I wanted something bigger than 61 but still smaller than the 88, and/or for a wider range of sounds than the Liano without going down to a 61.

Also worth noting... the CK61 is the only one that does not come with a music stand (aka iPad holder).

They all have speakers, and they all have actions that i find more suitable for piano than the Kross or lower end Rolands that have been mentioned.

 

[happyrat1]

Ain't it something how people are sooo eager to spend other people's money on a whim. From a basic controller on an iPhone thru some homebrew bluetooth speakers all of a sudden we're spending thousands of this guy's money on what sounds like a weekend hobby.

Howabout someone ask him if he can afford a Fantom 8, Montage or Nautilus next why doncha?

 

[anotherscott]

Ain't it something how people are sooo eager to spend other people's money on a whim. From a basic controller on an iPhone thru some homebrew bluetooth speakers all of a sudden we're spending thousands of this guy's money on what sounds like a weekend hobby.

Well, the Liano, CT-S500, and CT-S1-76 I mentioned are all in the range of $319 and $379. If he's going to buy a new keyboard at all (a route which I believe you first suggested), you're not going to find anything worthwhile for much less.

But anyway, as I said, it was a bit of a tangent, just because the conversation had moved that way (e.g. as you and Biggles mentioned Juno DS and Kross, which themselves aren't far from the CK61 price range, we're still not talking thousands here). But really I actually started writing that post simply to agree with Pete about the Liano. ;-)

 

[Biggles]

If you think we are good at spending other peoples money you should be on a one model car forum.

We spend tens of thousands of the Ops cash on upgraded models and must have options.

 

[Bouncingogre]

Yamaha PSR SX-700 every time.

Pick it up, plug it in, play it. Job done. No other equipment needed.

More than enough volume for smaller gatherings, and a very rich sound.
With a good loading of your own favourites on a usb stick, you're good to go.

 

[Biggles]

Yamaha PSR SX-700 every time.

Pick it up, plug it in, play it. Job done. No other equipment needed.

More than enough volume for smaller gatherings, and a very rich sound.
With a good loading of your own favourites on a usb stick, you're good to go.

2x15W should be way more than enough for small gigs.

Alas a retailer in the USA is showing on their website that it is no longer available.

There seems to be a new model in the PSR SX720 @ $1600.

The Korg Liano DP that Scott suggests is only $350, and has 2x8W onboard

 

[anotherscott]

One thing to be careful about is assuming more watts = more volume. Volume is also affected by the efficiency of the speaker. Other variables are the enclosures, and differences in ways the wattage can be measured (e.g. over what frequency range, or peak vs. continuous). Also, if you're playing for an audience, there will be differences in the volume from the audience's perspective depending on whether the speakers in your board are facing up, down, or toward the audience. And in interesting wrinkle I discovered more recently... the Liano can play louder when its driving an external sound through its speakers than when playing its own internal sounds (e.g. it will be louder playing a sound from an iPad attached through its built in interface).

But yes, in practical terms, a board with 15 w/ch should be loud enough for "unplugged" gigs. OTOH, I would not assume that every 8 watt board is necessarily louder than every 6 watt board, or that the 10 w/ch Numa Compacts are louder than the 8 watt Liano. (The Liano speakers are actually much more usable.)

 

[Pete The Greek]

The Casio CT-S1-76 is a bit cheaper than the Liano, and has a lot more internal sounds and effects, but lacks USB audio (why I didn't get one).

The Casio does have USB midi, and has a 1/8" stereo audio input, so you could use Pianoteq with an iPad but it would require another cable (and if your iPad doesn't have a headphone jack, a USB-C sound card). It's doable but gets more complicated. More stuff to bring to the gig (or forget to bring).

It also has a better music rest than the Liano: - - the Liano's is minimalist (a U-shaped wire with a V-shaped bend in the middle; the music or iPad sits in a slot on the piano itself)
- the Casio's is also wire but with a solid panel, and a proper horizontal section that holds the music above the keyboard.

The Casio's built in speakers are 2 x 6.5 watts (slightly less than the Liano) but has surround sound. I have not heard the CT-S1-76 but I owned the similar CT-S400 for a while and the surround sound on that was amazing. However that's probably not going to be the deciding factor for most people.

 

[Biggles]

The Op did make a fleeting visit this morning so they now have plenty of options to follow.

Hint to the Op …… an acknowledgement to the posts would not go amiss.