More DS questions, "fun" learning curve

[Oogie Wa Wa]

OK, I'm back for another round. Thanks for all the great replies, hope I'm not being a pain.

These are about how the unit works.

So, the knobs and sliders (AKA "controls"). Help! Can't find anything in the docs. If I take a Patch and modify and save it, many times I'll use a different volume (in this case Parts 1 and 2), or say a different cutoff or resonance, than the original. It gets saved in the user patch. But if it's one of the parameters controlled by a knob or slider, what happens when I restore to that patch if the actual controls are in a different position? Does it snap to the current control setting? Does it stay with the saved value until I move a control and snap to that value? Or unlikely but nice would be to have them go on an offset from the saved value (assuming the control is at some mid position.)? That would work if the controls were "on top of" the patch value, but it appears that the controls just vary that same parameter. So confusing. Maybe it's just something taken for granted to normal users, I dunno.

Speaking of those "analog"controls; when modifying patches and performances, do you try to leave them at a certain value, like in the mid position at "0" for the knobs and say maybe "100/127" on the sliders? Then you have room to come up on the sliders some if needed after restoring. And so do you keep them there, generally, and return them to those approximate values between changing patches/performances/favorites/songs when playing?

Oh, I've got lots more, but we'll save those for later. TIAs, folks, I always appreciate that good advice.

 

[happyrat1]

OK, if you save an entry volume for a patch or performance then whenever I want to change one or other of a layer for instance, I'll usually just manually do a quick sweep up and down with the sliders until it hits the actual set spot and then I feel my way to the volume/mix I want.

Basically the sliders have no effect when you don't touch them, but they go to absolute value upon any motion at all.

Same with the knob parameters. Saved settings don't change until you touch a knob.

I just do a quick sweep on the downbeat and continue along happily wherever I want it to go.

Where you leave your sliders and knobs set beforehand is moot anyway when performing. As you switch from patch to patch in a set, you'll always end up with the last patch's settings on your board.

You want sooper dooper motorized lit-up whoopdiedoo controllers to break down on you when you need them? Get a Montage or any state of the art top of the line offering from Korg or Roland and I think even Arturia has one or two of those

If Keith Emerson could work with this technology at the time, then we really should have no problem today with it.

Gary

 

[Oogie Wa Wa]

Spot on Gary, thanky kindly as usual.

Now that I know that, my plan for trying to keep the controls where I said should work; if the sounds are in balance correctly when created, they still will be. And now I know what I'll have to do, consistently, if they need modified.

For the songs I swap back and forth with the bass guitar, once I set up the keyboard "bias*" to make them match, I shouldn't have to change the bias between them all night, provided that I got my patches/perfs set up properly. If the rest of the guys come up, all I need to do is change the keyboard master volume. I just dig in more on the bass. Setting all this up is a lot of work on the front end, but makes it much simpler on stage.

(The bass guitar comes to the amp from a wireless receiver, and the left keyboard output goes through a little variable boost pedal by the amp, and both go into the amp's two buffered inputs. So all I have to do is initially tweak (*bias) that boost pedal to equalize volumes. Most people can't tell I've swapped! My cousin, an audiophile but not a musician, once asked if I looped the bass, he couldn't figure out how it kept going when I moved down to the keyboard! I said Nope, it's just magic and smiled. Then I showed him on the next break!)

You know this isn't nearly the end of these, right?

 

[anotherscott]

If Keith Emerson could work with this technology at the time, then we really should have no problem today with it.

At least in the early years, Emerson did not have to worry about having his tweaking knobs in sync with his recallable presets, because the synths didn't have recallable presets! ;-)

One thing nice about some boards, though, is the use of endless encoders rather than regular pots. Then the knobs always adjust from the "current" recalled position... no motorization required, but still no "jumps" when you move a control, or need to sweep "through" the current setting before the knob does anything, etc. That's a nice feature of the MODX, for example.

 

[Oogie Wa Wa]

Hmm, still many more questions to come, but there's one in particular I'm finding really interesting.

I will always be playing bass with the left had, which is finally slowly and tediously learning to play independently. It's also a pain to be setting up many performances in 16 part mode. Obviously in this mode some of the things I can do are limited.

I'm walking through Sweetwater on a pilgrimage a couple of days ago, and for $50 I see these Alesis Q Mini MIDI keyboard controllers. Hmmm.....

Would it be possible to have one of these dedicated to playing bass just above/below the DS, driving one of the MIDI channels that I'd assign the bass tone I want? Just hook it up via a MIDI interface of some sort and have at it? Or are things much more complicated than that and I'm just a silly noob that doesn't have a clue?

Thanky kindly, folks. Uh, emphasis on kindly, please!!!

Edit: The idea is to free up the DS to use many of it's other functions, and be able to use its whole keyboard with larger zones. But you probably knew that!

 

[happyrat1]

It might work, it might not. In theory all you'd have to do is assign the bass voice and mini keyboard to the same channel.

It might not work though, as MIDI settings can be a little wonky on the DS.

Give it a try and let us know how it works out for ya.

Gary

 

[Oogie Wa Wa]

Wow, that was fast!!! Thanks!

So it's a crapshoot, and if it doesn't work (or more likely I can't figure it out) then I could send it back, gotcha.

How about the interface part? It's got a USB port only, I take it I'd go from there to an interface to the MIDI DINs on the DS?

 

[happyrat1]

NOPE!!!

Get a mini keyboard with an actual MIDI port like the Arturia Keystep.

Otherwise you have to hook up the two using a computer as a MIDI host adapter.

The USB A port on the Juno is not a Host Port, it's only for memory sticks.

You'll have to handle all your routing thru a computer unless you have a direct MIDI to MIDI connection.

Gary

 

[Oogie Wa Wa]

NOPE!!!

Get a mini keyboard with an actual MIDI port like the Arturia Keystep.

Otherwise you have to hook up the two using a computer as a MIDI host adapter.

The USB A port on the Juno is not a Host Port, it's only for memory sticks.

You'll have to handle all your routing thru a computer unless you have a direct MIDI to MIDI connection.

Gary

There it is! I'll take a look. I kinda thought that was too simple to be true. Thanks!

 

[anotherscott]

Absolutely, your aux keyboard should have a 5-pin MIDI Out. While it's not quite true that "otherwise you have to hook up the two using a computer as a MIDI host adapter" (there are other host devices you can use), you're much better off doing it the "right" way. Simpler, cheaper, more bulletproof.

To the initial point, yes, you can use an external keyboard to play one of the Juno parts, freeing up all the keys of the Juno itself for other purposes. But I think you'll still have to use Performance mode.

 

[happyrat1]

The thing I'm not certain about Scott is that the Juno is very limited when it comes to assigning and throughputting MIDI information to controllers and hosts.

It's a great sounding keyboard, but it was mainly designed as a performance board and MIDI was sort of added as an afterthought.

Whenever I use my Juno with my Linux MIDI computer, I experience all sorts of weird disconnects requiring resets that make workflow tedious.

What I'm saying is I am not sure if he can assign a 32 key controller to a 1 octave range on the Juno and cannot guarantee his results.

It may be that he effectively gains no extra keyboard real estate than he would with an ordinary split.

Anyway, the MIDI issues are one of the main reasons I want to sell mine. I'm not sure if it's the Juno's MIDI or my Linux system, but I run two identical computers in two studios and the one hooked up to the Kurzweil never gave a second's trouble in it's life.

Gary

 

[Oogie Wa Wa]

You folks are invaluable, thanks!

There will be more. And soon, my Casio crapped out again mid-set last night, I had to power it down/up to get it to reset. Almost time to swap.

Oh, here: with learning to play bass and piano, sometimes I almost forget about the singing/microphone thing! As you can tell, I need the bass part on a separate volume control, they sounded balanced in my studio. Maybe it's just because the guy's phone mic is the size of a Sen-Sen. The Weight cover, The Feds Band, 1/7/22, Huron Eagles Aire.

 

[Oogie Wa Wa]

And all cover bands cover Gershwin, right???

Summertime, The Feds Band, 1-7-22

 

[anotherscott]

What I'm saying is I am not sure if he can assign a 32 key controller to a 1 octave range on the Juno and cannot guarantee his results.

It may be that he effectively gains no extra keyboard real estate than he would with an ordinary split.

I understand what you're saying here, but I don't think it's an issue. While I believe you're correct that that the Juno DS cannot restrict incoming MIDI to a specific key range, that shouldn't matter here. Let's say we set the external controller to transmit on channel 16, and we put the Juno DS' bass sound on channel 16, but we do NOT enable keyboard control for it. Then you should be able to play whatever combination you want of the remaining 15 sounds over the entire set of Juno keys, and the bass sound will only be triggered by the external controller, regardless of any key range settings anywhere. Off-hand, I don't remember whether or not I've done something like this myself, but I'm pretty sure that's how it would work.

 

[Oogie Wa Wa]

OK, I'm back and finally starting to figure this thing out. This first one is more with regard to setting up Performances, using Dual, Split and 16 part mode.

When setting up these, how do you save the volume levels for the individual parts? My thoughts are to first keep the sliders for Parts 1 and 2 normally around the 100 mark, and for any Performance those two parts are set to a volume of around 100 in the Performance. Then if I want to bring either of those up I can just use the sliders. The rest of the Parts (if any) would normally be set to a lower volume than the first two for more subtle sounds, like say for pads; and set to sound about the same volume as Parts 1 and 2 when switching to them completely.

Does that make sense? Kind of like having some headroom, but more flexible than just turning up the master.

Part 2, and for what it's worth, I'm going through a guitar dial-able gain pedal to coarse balance the key bass with the bass guitar (back at the bass amp) for the left channel, and also a separate inline full to preset minimum volume foot pedal on the way to the PA for the right channel. But I don't want the Parts to be all hard-panned right (bass) or left (else). I'm thinking of using something like a 50L or R pan. First to make sure I can hear everything, second for a little separation and dispersion. Similar to how we have some guitar and some kick drum going through the PA. I found if you hard pan (64L or R) that there is a distinct loss of volume for any given Part. Sound OK? Potential issues?

Thanks as usual, sorry to be a pain, but I'm getting close!!! First gig is in 3 weeks, I'm just adding keys since we have a substitute playing bass (I was supposed to be in Florida until 3/31.) The first full 3-piece gig alternating between bass guitar and keys, full implementation, is on 4/16.

 

[happyrat1]

Volume levels are saved when saving a performance.

Whatever specific levels you choose will have to suit your needs.

There's not much else I can add.

Gary

 

[Oogie Wa Wa]

Sanity check time.

Starting to come together, and I'm building my arsenal. Before making this thing useable, there's just a few things I have to check.

If I want to have 2 or 3 common bass guitar tones used in almost all of our songs, I think I should be:

-Picking the Patches that most closely resemble my actual bass guitar (BG) tones. This may be one or two for now.

-Make appropriate User Patches from them by twiddling with the parameters and Write/Save. Like one Patch of the Fingered Bass 3 EQ'd a little brighter and one lower for to match what I do for different genres on the BG itself. (Bright - Rock; More fundamental - Blues, etc.)

-Use each of those User Patches in the Performances I build in 16 Part Mode, with KBD=ON, in Part 2, so it's always available. Add the other Parts to those Performances with them all KBD=OFF so I can use the Phrase Pads to turn them each on as desired. >>>OR CAN I also turn on Part 1, generally a grand piano, to KBD=ON so it always comes up on, and use the Phrase Pad 1 to turn it off to solo the other instruments?<<<

-Apply any Effects to the BG parts at the Performance level. That will give me a couple more Effects left, besides Chorus and Reverb. Write/Save. (EDIT: Do the Pan and keyboard ranges in the performances, too.)

-Using the Tone Manager, I can copy/duplicate the first Performance and just change to one of the other bass User Patches, which will allow carrying over everything else.

-Arrange the Performances in Favorites so I can get to them and switch easily.

Once all that is done, it's rehearsal time, where I'll probably have to re-do everything in or at least tweak them in.

So, have I gone completely off the deep end, are there some better ways, or am I at least headed in the right direction? As usual, thanks...

 

[Oogie Wa Wa]

EDIT: Never mind, I figured it out.

In case someone wants to know, edit the performance and go to the last tab of settings, the last column is labeled HD, uncheck it for the parts you don't want to hold.
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One more. Can I tell one Part NOT to HOLD when everything else does upon depressing the hold pedal? How? I need the bass guitar sound to keep going while everything else at the end of Radar Love builds up. Muchos gracias un otra vez.

Setting up Radar Love and You Can't Always Get What You Want right now. Fun stuff, but matching sounds with so many choices is a real pain. If you think I can find the right french horn...