Realistic Horn Samples Through a MIDI Keyboard Help?

[Skoolboy Jim]

I am an idiot when it comes to MIDI and samples..I'm an old guitar player...what can I say???

I just purchased an old Roland JV 1080 thinking I could find usable horn sounds on the expansion cards. Well, I didn't find anything. I just found a site with samples off all of the cards and there are only a few saxophone samples and they sound terrible. And as far as I can tell I can't add samples to the Roland JV-1080.

All I really want are realistic sounding baritone and tenor sax samples (single note) to ad to blues/rock sounding songs with my little MIDI keyboard.

I know this should be easy but it ain't for me. My son has a Roland Juno and I didn't find anything on it that sounded good either.

Is there some kind of sound module that comes in a 19" rack unit where I can get REAL horn samples, not some bad synth imitation that will hook up to a MIDI keyboard?

 

[happyrat1]

You could always set up the JV as a MIDI controller and run a virtual horn instrument (VST) plugin on a laptop or an ipad.

These are supposed to be some of the best sampled woodwinds and brass sounds around.

https://8dio.com/instrument-category/brass/

https://8dio.com/instrument-category/orchestral-woodwinds/

In theory they will blow away any hardware synth on the market.

For added realism it would help to also add a breath controller.

http://www.tecontrol.se/products/usb-midi-breath-bite-controller-2

http://www.tecontrol.se/products/usb-midi-breath-controller

Gary

 

[SeaGtGruff]

I wonder if using a breath controller hooked up to the keyboard/synth would help make its sax voices sound better?

 

[Skoolboy Jim]

You could always set up the JV as a MIDI controller and run a virtual horn instrument (VST) plugin on a laptop or an ipad.

These are supposed to be some of the best sampled woodwinds and brass sounds around.

https://8dio.com/instrument-category/brass/

https://8dio.com/instrument-category/orchestral-woodwinds/

In theory they will blow away any hardware synth on the market.

For added realism it would help to also add a breath controller.

http://www.tecontrol.se/products/usb-midi-breath-bite-controller-2

http://www.tecontrol.se/products/usb-midi-breath-controller

Gary

That's exactly the kind of advice I'm looking for, thanks!

 

[anotherscott]

My son has a Roland Juno and I didn't find anything on it that sounded good either.

Which Juno is it? If it's the Juno DS, you could try one of the free sound expansion downloads from the axial web site, like the EXP-06 Studio Collection or the EXP-07 Brass Collection. Sill not state of the art, but better than what's in the Juno itself, or the JV-1080 which dates from the last century.

I also think it's worth remembering that, just as a guitar patch never really replaces an actual guitarist ;-) - a sax patch will only get you so close to a real sax player.

You could always set up the JV as a MIDI controller and run a virtual horn instrument (VST) plugin on a laptop or an ipad.

Close... he could run the VST or iPad app from whatever he's using as a controller. Not the JV, which is just a rack module.

I'm not sure about the 8DIO stuff, though... maybe more "symphonic" sounding horns than the blues/rock kind of stuff he's looking for? Another thing to be aware of is that a lot of the high end VSTs are really setup much more for line-at-a-time sequencing/composition rather than real-time performance.

 

[Skoolboy Jim]

Which Juno is it? If it's the Juno DS, you could try one of the free sound expansion downloads from the axial web site, like the EXP-06 Studio Collection or the EXP-07 Brass Collection. Sill not state of the art, but better than what's in the Juno itself, or the JV-1080 which dates from the last century.

I also think it's worth remembering that, just as a guitar patch never really replaces an actual guitarist ;-) - a sax patch will only get you so close to a real sax player.

Close... he could run the VST or iPad app from whatever he's using as a controller. Not the JV, which is just a rack module.

I'm not sure about the 8DIO stuff, though... maybe more "symphonic" sounding horns than the blues/rock kind of stuff he's looking for? Another thing to be aware of is that a lot of the high end VSTs are really setup much more for line-at-a-time sequencing/composition rather than real-time performance.

Yeah, I think you are right about the JV-80, thanks! I'm not sure what I was thinking with the JV-80, haha. Their expansion cards are still pretty spendy on Ebay, so at least I didn't waste money on them.

I'll check out the Juno brass collection you mentioned and see if I can find something. It seems like there should be better horn samples available, like REAL horns sampled. Everything on the Juno DS is just a synth simulation and doesn't sound even close to my ears. Why can't they just sample real horn sounds?

 

[tjw]

Few times, I used v-vocal on a sampled sax from JABB. Took lots of time, but the result was much more realistic and sounded more like a real player.

 

[John Garside]

As TJW has written, Garritan JaBB (Jazz and Big Band) has some good sampled sounds. More than a dozen different saxes from sopranino to Sub Contra Bass. The package comes with the ARIA player in both VST and stand alone versions (x86 and X64). With a little practice and having read the manual at least once to understand how various MIDI controls affect the sounds produced, it can provide some very realistic sounding instruments.
Look here: https://www.garritan.com/products/jazz-big-band-3/

 

[Biggles]

Another option would be to look at buying another keyboard that has the sounds or close to the sounds you want, any sounds that are close should be able to be tweated in setting to achieve the desired sound.

VSTs as shown above can soon mount up in total cost.

Perhapsa trip to a well stocked music store would help in listening to what is available. Then for a one off buy you will have a keyboard that will do precisely what you want without all the hubdreds of hours spent learning about and configuring a MIDI setup.

On a side I can configure the brass to sound a glissando up or down on my Korg PA if this is of interest to add extra realism very easily. Korg instruments that have DNC features are very easily customised. Do have a look and listen to the Korg Video Manual series on say the PA700 Sounds to hear what it sounds like.

 

[Skoolboy Jim]

Another option would be to look at buying another keyboard that has the sounds or close to the sounds you want, any sounds that are close should be able to be tweated in setting to achieve the desired sound.

VSTs as shown above can soon mount up in total cost.

Perhapsa trip to a well stocked music store would help in listening to what is available. Then for a one off buy you will have a keyboard that will do precisely what you want without all the hubdreds of hours spent learning about and configuring a MIDI setup.

On a side I can configure the brass to sound a glissando up or down on my Korg PA if this is of interest to add extra realism very easily. Korg instruments that have DNC features are very easily customised. Do have a look and listen to the Korg Video Manual series on say the PA700 Sounds to hear what it sounds like.

I wouldn't be surprised if Korg has better horn samples. The Roland Juno seems more set up for pop.

 

[Skoolboy Jim]

As TJW has written, Garritan JaBB (Jazz and Big Band) has some good sampled sounds. More than a dozen different saxes from sopranino to Sub Contra Bass. The package comes with the ARIA player in both VST and stand alone versions (x86 and X64). With a little practice and having read the manual at least once to understand how various MIDI controls affect the sounds produced, it can provide some very realistic sounding instruments.
Look here: https://www.garritan.com/products/jazz-big-band-3/

I like the JaBB product! Thanks! Since I have an analog studio it is gonna take a little figuring out. I read a lot of the help filed but didn't quite understand. Would I be able to load those samples into the Roland Juno DS? I don't want to spend too much time editing the samples but maybe I'll have to get a decent sound.

 

[happyrat1]

My advice is to email the company and ask them what format the samples are in.

If they are available as simple stereo or mono WAV samples you'll have no trouble importing them into a Juno DS.

However, if they are a DAW plugin with additional acoustic modelling then it will be impossible to import them. They will only be playable by an ipad or a computer.

Gary

 

[Skoolboy Jim]

My advice is to email the company and ask them what format the samples are in.

If they are available as simple stereo or mono WAV samples you's have no trouble importing them into a Juno DS.

However, if they are a DAW plugin with additional acoustic modelling then it will be impossible to import them. They will only be playable by an ipad or a computer.

Gary

Thanks you Gary!

 

[anotherscott]

I'll check out the Juno brass collection you mentioned and see if I can find something. It seems like there should be better horn samples available, like REAL horns sampled. Everything on the Juno DS is just a synth simulation and doesn't sound even close to my ears. Why can't they just sample real horn sounds?

Actually, the Juno DS has real horn samples (and the downloadable expansion packs I mentioned provide more of them).

As for loading your own samples into the Juno, remember there is limited space, I think it's 55 mb. Don't expect to be able to load in high end VST calbre sample sets.

 

[happyrat1]

Yeah there's a lot of truth to what Scott says.

Actually you may be able to find a decent horn sound in the Juno DS if you took the time and trouble to play around with the resonance and reverb settings for each voice and did a little constructive tweaking of the FX.

Gary

 

[John Garside]

I like the JaBB product! Thanks! Since I have an analog studio it is gonna take a little figuring out. I read a lot of the help filed but didn't quite understand. Would I be able to load those samples into the Roland Juno DS? I don't want to spend too much time editing the samples but maybe I'll have to get a decent sound.

Glad you liked the sound of these, but they are only available, realistically, to be played in the ARIA player which would run on a PC or Mac computer. I use a second-hand laptop, a Lenovo T420, running windows 7. The keyboard you use would then be connected, via MIDI or USB, to the computer and played from there.

As well as the samples, which for some instruments include at least one sample for each note the instrument is capable of playing, there is also an "instruction" file (written in a code known as sfz) which tells the ARIA player how to play the note at various "levels" and adds all sorts of "expressive" controls implemented via MIDI messages such as expression, legato playing, vibrato, "growl" and so on. The code also includes points where the sample is looped from and to for very long notes.

So, I suppose you could play the note you require and record it. Then create a sample from it and use that.
A bit convoluted tough.

 

[tjw]

Yes, I'm surprised Garritan didn't make provisions for the Apple "side" - I'm thinking more musicians use Apple and it's descendants than the IBM-PC progeny.

 

[John Garside]

JaBB3 works on a MAcintosh too.
In fact, AFAIK all the Garritan libraries do ... not that I'm interested.
Check out the 'system requirements' tab on the JaBB page I referred too and you'll see Mac there.

And, after looking through the sfz file that instructs the ARIA player how to play the notes, I discover that the playback actually involves three different sets of samples, first the sampled notes, second a breath sound which (as far as I can tell) modulates the notes, and third something called a "key.click".

My conclusion is that just using the basic note samples isn't going to get you a realistic sounding sax.

 

[tjw]

Thanks for the info....