Stepping up from Tyros 5 to Genos2.

[Steve Bolander]

I've already succumbed to the raves and hype of the Yamaha Genos2 and made my purchase about a month ago. Once I get comfortable with the Genos2's learning curve, it's my intention to replace my Tyros 5/76 with this supposedly marvelous instrument.

So, I'm curious what others think about making this very same transition from the Tyros 5. Do you think the Genos2 has noticeable improvements, such as: Its overall features? Its variety of voices and styles? The layout of Its operational controls? Its sound quality?

Bottom line, are you content with your decision to step up from the Tyros to the Genos?

 

[TedS]

I have a Tyros 5. The biggest advancement, functionally, is probably the chord looper, and its ability to store chord progressions and use them to drive the style. However... I'm not sure whether I would make use of it. I feel like it's the first step on a slippery slope toward playing over a recorded MIDI.

Yes I know that style patterns are pre-recorded sequences. But by entering the chords in real time, you're still "playing live," at least in a sense. Hopefully others will chime in. Please let us know what you think after you've been playing the Genos for a few weeks.

 

[Biggles]

On the Genos 2 are the Chord Sequences switchable?

They certainly are on my Korg, where I am slowly adding them, but not using them as yet, but maybe when my left hand arthritis gets worst then I will.

So do check up if the Chord Sequence in a Genos 2 is saved with the Registration and that it is also switchable.

 

[Steve Bolander]

On the Genos 2 are the Chord Sequences switchable?

They certainly are on my Korg, where I am slowly adding them, but not using them as yet, but maybe when my left hand arthritis gets worst then I will.

So do check up if the Chord Sequence in a Genos 2 is saved with the Registration and that it is also switchable.

That, I don't know as of yet and that's a good question. But, I'm not really sure that I'd be taking advantage of such a feature. Like TedS said above, it would be one more thing that would be included into the already packed elements within a registration. I don't want to get to the point where my keyboard becomes a karaoke machine that I'm merely playing along with (if that makes any sense).

 

[Biggles]

That, I don't know as of yet and that's a good question. But, I'm not really sure that I'd be taking advantage of such a feature. Like TedS said above, it would be one more thing that would be included into the already packed elements within a registration. I don't want to get to the point where my keyboard becomes a karaoke machine that I'm merely playing along with (if that makes any sense).

Yes that does make sense.

Just because the chord sequence is programmed one does not need to use it.

On other forums Tyros users have not necessarily taken to the Genos 2, the opposite in fact a significant number of buyers seem to have returned them.

Buy a Genos 2 by all means but do keep hold of your Tyros.

For what it is worth I tried a Genos 2 right alongside a Korg Pa5X, it was a no contest.

 

[Bouncingogre]

That's what I did too.
I am keeping my PSR SX700, as it is an excellent keyboard.
I too tried a Genos 2 and the Pa5X. For me, price wasn't the issue. I considered an original Genos 1, but the Pa5X is just amazing.

I still think that had the G2 been built as well as the previous Tyros models, it would maybe have been a more difficult choice, but
the build quality and features of the Pa5X, in my opinion, knock the G2 out of the park.
It's just a much more Professional quality keyboard with incredible potential.

 

[Steve Bolander]

Thanks for all of your inputs. Yes, the likelihood of hanging onto the Tyros definitely exists. (I'm not exactly sure where I'm going to arrange both of these keyboards within my rack set-up since the Genos has already taken its place where my Tyros once resided.)

One of my initial observations is that the Genos2 appears to be simpler in its operation due to its fewer operational buttons than the Tyros 5. However, that means that in order to access a specific Genos2 feature, I have to "menu my way" into finding it. (i.e., style categories, voice patch categories, Music Finder, etc.) Not a deal-breaker, but noticeably more inconvenient.

 

[TedS]

One supposed advantage of the Genos, is that as an end-user you can customize the function of certain buttons and on-screen layout. I suppose the idea is that you would set it up for whichever functions you routinely use. So the fact that there are fewer buttons isn't really a handicap.

Some players discovered the potential of the chord looper and say it's a game-changer. But considering the cash I would have to add if I were to trade my Tyros 5 against a Genos 2, I'm happy keeping what i have for the time being.

 

[immrdave]

I've already succumbed to the raves and hype of the Yamaha Genos2 and made my purchase about a month ago. Once I get comfortable with the Genos2's learning curve, it's my intention to replace my Tyros 5/76 with this supposedly marvelous instrument.

So, I'm curious what others think about making this very same transition from the Tyros 5. Do you think the Genos2 has noticeable improvements, such as: Its overall features? Its variety of voices and styles? The layout of Its operational controls? Its sound quality?

Bottom line, are you content with your decision to step up from the Tyros to the Genos?

For your information, Geno's has 58 gb of memory, compared to 15 gb for Geno's 2. A used Geno's might be a better buy if you don't need the new styles. Most of the new styles are for new genres that I don't play.

 

[Cosmos]

I've already succumbed to the raves and hype of the Yamaha Genos2 and made my purchase about a month ago. Once I get comfortable with the Genos2's learning curve, it's my intention to replace my Tyros 5/76 with this supposedly marvelous instrument.

So, I'm curious what others think about making this very same transition from the Tyros 5. Do you think the Genos2 has noticeable improvements, such as: Its overall features? Its variety of voices and styles? The layout of Its operational controls? Its sound quality?

Bottom line, are you content with your decision to step up from the Tyros to the Genos?

I bought a G2 it has good points and bad ones I really don't like. One major disappointment is that it has no SST (or SSS as Yamaha call it - seamless sound switching) seamless sound transition. Not only that but if you play and hold down a key and change voice, the held down key's voice suddenly goes up in volume and this is very unpleasant to the ear. I didn't know about this, if I knew I wouldn't have bought it. My problem was that Korg or Ketron are not represented in my country so I only had one choice. But after learning about the SST I was now willing to take the risk and bring either the PA5X or the Event or EventX from Germany.

A good point the G2 has (I believe not available in the G1) is that the registration stores the MIDI Settings. So each Registration you memorise will store all midi settings and it does this individually for each Registration in a bank. This feature I asked for before I bought it and because I started using MIDI a lot it really did help me. There again I learned that the PA5X and the Event does this also.

I'm quite happy with the keyboard touch but have heard that the PA5X is better. This I don't know about. I never had a Tyros so I cannot comment on that.

Hope I helped someone here before they commit themselves in buying.

 

[Biggles]

I bought a G2 it has good points and bad ones I really don't like. One major disappointment is that it has no SST (or SSS as Yamaha call it - seamless sound switching) seamless sound transition. Not only that but if you play and hold down a key and change voice, the held down key's voice suddenly goes up in volume and this is very unpleasant to the ear. I didn't know about this, if I knew I wouldn't have bought it. My problem was that Korg or Ketron are not represented in my country so I only had one choice. But after learning about the SST I was now willing to take the risk and bring either the PA5X or the Event or EventX from Germany.

A good point the G2 has (I believe not available in the G1) is that the registration stores the MIDI Settings. So each Registration you memorise will store all midi settings and it does this individually for each Registration in a bank. This feature I asked for before I bought it and because I started using MIDI a lot it really did help me. There again I learned that the PA5X and the Event does this also.

I'm quite happy with the keyboard touch but have heard that the PA5X is better. This I don't know about. I never had a Tyros so I cannot comment on that.

Hope I helped someone here before they commit themselves in buying.

I have a 5X and it is vastly better than a Genos2, the latest update adds extra features and Styles and Sounds.

The SST works brilliantly.

The standard Keyboard Sets (sound combinations) are superb and IMO much better than the screeching G2 sounds.

At last the Korg Acoustic Piano sounds are better than those in the G2 and where in a Yamaha there are often only one prime Acoustic Piano in a 5X there are 5 prime ones to chose from and 56 in total in OS 1.2 which is what I am still using.

The semi weighted keybed (with aftertouch) is vastly better than on other Pa models

So go for it

 

[amwilburn]

Biggles, I'm glad for you that you enjoy the PA5x so much, but it's far from as black and white as you make it seem.
PA5x: Excellent build quality, nice chassis, tiltable screen, the Fatar semiweighted keys on the 61 and 76 versions are even nicer than the Tyros/Genos keys, yes. Not a fan of the much slower 88 key version though.

Additionally, the bass compression really makes the drums and bass punchy, and Korg has always been a world leader in synths (especially pad synths). The pianos blow the G1 pianos out of the water; only the U3, Felt piano, and Character Grand on the G2 are comparable.

Now for the not so good (depending on your needs); no registration sequencing. So all of my youtube videos would not be possible.

So S.Art2 phrasing on the PA5x doesn't automatically shift mono/poly; so when you do a sax gliss, for example, the fall off sample will still sound on top of your original note, unless your timing is inhuman (Yamaha's had auto switch from poly to mono for phrased articulations since the Tyros 3).

Korg's synth strings and pads are superior, but even the strings (and brass, and woodwind) on the G1 are better than the PA5x's; the new improved brass on the G2 even more so.

G1,G2 and PA5x all feature round robin drum cycling, and all sound fantastic, but the Revelation reverb on the G2 isn't just marketing buzzspeak; long story short, when I play the same style/ midis on the PA5x, Genos1, Genos 2 (I have them all hooked up to the same speakers), the G1 and the PA5x sound "canned", but the G2 sounds more "real"

Here's my midi recording of "Fever", optimized for G2. What you hear is the same as the quality of the styles on board.

Fever slap bass G2 mega.mp3

drive.google.com

Here's my midi recording of the same file, optimized for PA5x.

fever pa5x.mp3

drive.google.com

Plus being able to search for voices, styles, registrations, and songs, is a godsend on the G1/G2.

Having said all that, *not* having SSS on the G1 or G2 (well, technically you can if you jump through hoops, but it *should* just work out of the box), the much more toylike build quality of the G1/G2, the much punchier bass compression on the Korg; if you don't need a lot of sample library (it's been over 2 years, no old packs have been made compatible, nor any released for the PA5x yet), and you just want to play it 'out of the box', it *is* still an incredible instrument.

PLUS it has a separate guitar input jack with full amp modelling... your guitarist literally can just bring his guitar, no amp, and run it through your PA5x in to the same PA speakers. Yes, technically G1/G2 can do this too, but at the expense of the vocal mic; PA5x you can have both the guitarist and singer running through the same board, with independent DSP's for both.

It's far from a simple "This is so much better than that".

Mark

 

[Cosmos]

*not* having SSS on the G1 or G2 (well, technically you can if you jump through hoops, but it *should* just work out of the box),

Hi, could you let me know how I can technically jump through hoops and remedy the SSS problem on G2 please. Even some OTS voices cut when changing voices through registrations, not only that but the voice's volume you're playing goes suddenly higher and that sound really bad. For me that is just black and not white or grey I really hate it and if I knew I wouldn't have bought it. Only way I skip such a hurdle is by using VST voices too using a DAW.

 

[amwilburn]

Well, here's the irony...before 2000? *all* keyboards were SSS. Any brand. It was when they started putting large samples in them, with reassignable DSP's on the fly, that SSS suddenly didn't work.

So there are 2 cheap ways around it (and yes, I completely understand if that's a deal breaker for some. It's almost a deal breaker for me, and I *know* how to circumvent in most cases) and i really, really complicated way.

Cheap way #1: go back to using GM/XG voices (some legacy voices work too)
Cheap way #2: essentially do what the MODX does: reserve unusued voice slots and dsps: for example, lets say you have a song that starts on piano, goes to piano + strings, then just strings and guitar?
You could preassign all 3 to R1,R2,R3 and basically turn them on /off as needed via registrations. So Memory 1 might be just piano in R1, slow strings (off) in R2, nylon classical guitar,R3, off
Memory 2 could be R1 & R2 both on.
Memory 3 could be R2 and R3 both on, turn off R1.
*then* with R1 turned off, you could switch to a new sound in R1; and on Memory 4 have it saved with the new R1 off and memory 5 would then have that R1 switched on

difficult way ( you won't like this): if you're using all 3 parts (R1,R2,R3) you have to make sure the relative internal volume of each voice is the same (go into voice edit, some voices are at 127, some are at 80, that's one of the causes of the blips); 2nd cause? DSP's, especially when going to/from distortion. You'll have to strip those out, or if you must use distortion, use cheap way #2 above to introduce/exit from (ie turn the sound off on the next registraion, *then* switch to distorition sound on the following one, and *then* turn it on. Yes it potentially introduces an extra registration change for each such switch, nearly doubling the number of memory slots used!

Like I said, it's jumping through hoops

Mark

 

[Cosmos]

Well, here's the irony...before 2000? *all* keyboards were SSS. Any brand. It was when they started putting large samples in them, with reassignable DSP's on the fly, that SSS suddenly didn't work.

So there are 2 cheap ways around it (and yes, I completely understand if that's a deal breaker for some. It's almost a deal breaker for me, and I *know* how to circumvent in most cases) and i really, really complicated way.

Cheap way #1: go back to using GM/XG voices (some legacy voices work too)
Cheap way #2: essentially do what the MODX does: reserve unusued voice slots and dsps: for example, lets say you have a song that starts on piano, goes to piano + strings, then just strings and guitar?
You could preassign all 3 to R1,R2,R3 and basically turn them on /off as needed via registrations. So Memory 1 might be just piano in R1, slow strings (off) in R2, nylon classical guitar,R3, off
Memory 2 could be R1 & R2 both on.
Memory 3 could be R2 and R3 both on, turn off R1.
*then* with R1 turned off, you could switch to a new sound in R1; and on Memory 4 have it saved with the new R1 off and memory 5 would then have that R1 switched on

difficult way ( you won't like this): if you're using all 3 parts (R1,R2,R3) you have to make sure the relative internal volume of each voice is the same (go into voice edit, some voices are at 127, some are at 80, that's one of the causes of the blips); 2nd cause? DSP's, especially when going to/from distortion. You'll have to strip those out, or if you must use distortion, use cheap way #2 above to introduce/exit from (ie turn the sound off on the next registraion, *then* switch to distorition sound on the following one, and *then* turn it on. Yes it potentially introduces an extra registration change for each such switch, nearly doubling the number of memory slots used!

Like I said, it's jumping through hoops

Mark

Thank you for your explanation in detail. It did enter my mind to try something similar like you've mentioned although I just haven't experimented with the idea yet. I will try your #2 out and see how it goes and possibly what's happening. I cannot say I'm not curious and so would eagerly like to know how Korg did it with their PA-5X. It must be technically integrated in the design and not a question of an OS update.

 

[Biggles]

Biggles, I'm glad for you that you enjoy the PA5x so much, but it's far from as black and white as you make it seem.
PA5x: Excellent build quality, nice chassis, tiltable screen, the Fatar semiweighted keys on the 61 and 76 versions are even nicer than the Tyros/Genos keys, yes. Not a fan of the much slower 88 key version though.

Additionally, the bass compression really makes the drums and bass punchy, and Korg has always been a world leader in synths (especially pad synths). The pianos blow the G1 pianos out of the water; only the U3, Felt piano, and Character Grand on the G2 are comparable.

Now for the not so good (depending on your needs); no registration sequencing. So all of my youtube videos would not be possible.

So S.Art2 phrasing on the PA5x doesn't automatically shift mono/poly; so when you do a sax gliss, for example, the fall off sample will still sound on top of your original note, unless your timing is inhuman (Yamaha's had auto switch from poly to mono for phrased articulations since the Tyros 3).

Korg's synth strings and pads are superior, but even the strings (and brass, and woodwind) on the G1 are better than the PA5x's; the new improved brass on the G2 even more so.

G1,G2 and PA5x all feature round robin drum cycling, and all sound fantastic, but the Revelation reverb on the G2 isn't just marketing buzzspeak; long story short, when I play the same style/ midis on the PA5x, Genos1, Genos 2 (I have them all hooked up to the same speakers), the G1 and the PA5x sound "canned", but the G2 sounds more "real"

Here's my midi recording of "Fever", optimized for G2. What you hear is the same as the quality of the styles on board.

Fever slap bass G2 mega.mp3

drive.google.com

Here's my midi recording of the same file, optimized for PA5x.

fever pa5x.mp3

drive.google.com

Plus being able to search for voices, styles, registrations, and songs, is a godsend on the G1/G2.

Having said all that, *not* having SSS on the G1 or G2 (well, technically you can if you jump through hoops, but it *should* just work out of the box), the much more toylike build quality of the G1/G2, the much punchier bass compression on the Korg; if you don't need a lot of sample library (it's been over 2 years, no old packs have been made compatible, nor any released for the PA5x yet), and you just want to play it 'out of the box', it *is* still an incredible instrument.

PLUS it has a separate guitar input jack with full amp modelling... your guitarist literally can just bring his guitar, no amp, and run it through your PA5x in to the same PA speakers. Yes, technically G1/G2 can do this too, but at the expense of the vocal mic; PA5x you can have both the guitarist and singer running through the same board, with independent DSP's for both.

It's far from a simple "This is so much better than that".

Mark

Totally disagree.

Yamaha’s Brass and Strings are to my ears strained, muted and yet screeching.

Not a fan at all, and it is not just the Genos it is every Yamaha that I have played.

To each there own.

 

[amwilburn]

Yes, absolutely, to each their own

 

[amwilburn]

Thank you for your explanation in detail. It did enter my mind to try something similar like you've mentioned although I just haven't experimented with the idea yet. I will try your #2 out and see how it goes and possibly what's happening. I cannot say I'm not curious and so would eagerly like to know how Korg did it with their PA-5X. It must be technically integrated in the design and not a question of an OS update.

Pa5x, Modx, all do it the same way: reserve half the dsp's, and don't tweak the relative playback volumes of the voice samples. Roland explained it best when they launched the Fantom (X, I think it was, in 2009): with large samples and DSP's, the only way to do true SSS/SST is to have double the number of DSP's and reserve half for the voice changes. (that's not the entire equation, but a large part of it). Now that the Genos and Genos 2 have 28 individually assignable DSP's, if they locked it down so that you couldn't assign more than 1 DSP to a voice, then they'd have the space reserved to do SSS.

They'd also have to force all voice sample playback to the same level as well, and I'm honestly not sure why that isn't an optional mode, especially when dealing with registrations. The Korg's don't have sequenced registrations (a deal breaker for me; but also they don't have any really fast bowed non-spiccato orchestral strings, which I *need* in almost every demo: Pirates of the Caribbean, Halo, Avengers Theme, etc), but it's ironic that the one without SSS is the one that actually needs it the most.

Even on the MODX/Montage, which *do* have SSS, you would never switch scenes as rapidly as you do during a registration. Incidentally you can't use up all8 parts when switching from 1 scene to another, you can only use 4 of the 8 if you want SSS, which is exactly the same principle as my "cheap #2" stated above

Mark

 

[Cosmos]

Pa5x, Modx, all do it the same way: reserve half the dsp's, and don't tweak the relative playback volumes of the voice samples. Roland explained it best when they launched the Fantom (X, I think it was, in 2009): with large samples and DSP's, the only way to do true SSS/SST is to have double the number of DSP's and reserve half for the voice changes. (that's not the entire equation, but a large part of it). Now that the Genos and Genos 2 have 28 individually assignable DSP's, if they locked it down so that you couldn't assign more than 1 DSP to a voice, then they'd have the space reserved to do SSS.

They'd also have to force all voice sample playback to the same level as well, and I'm honestly not sure why that isn't an optional mode, especially when dealing with registrations. The Korg's don't have sequenced registrations (a deal breaker for me; but also they don't have any really fast bowed non-spiccato orchestral strings, which I *need* in almost every demo: Pirates of the Caribbean, Halo, Avengers Theme, etc), but it's ironic that the one without SSS is the one that actually needs it the most.

Even on the MODX/Montage, which *do* have SSS, you would never switch scenes as rapidly as you do during a registration. Incidentally you can't use up all8 parts when switching from 1 scene to another, you can only use 4 of the 8 if you want SSS, which is exactly the same principle as my "cheap #2" stated above

Mark

Thank you for your lengthy well researched report. I know nothing about the PA5-X, doesn't it have the Song Book that is equivalent to Yamaha's Registrations? I'm sure it must have some king of registration memory with 'skipping' to build a song although not necessarily sequencing.

 

[amwilburn]

It's a similar idea, but you can't chain them infinitely together (at least, not yet... Korg has been implementing massive changes with each OS update). If they every implement one that lets me pedal step through an infinite number of changes, then yes, I'll have to start putting up some youtube demos on Korgs as well.

It's definitely not equivalent, no. Yamaha registrations capture a snapshot of the memory at that time; split point, fingering, tempo, scale, fine tuning, transpose, pedal assignments, voice modifications, all assigned dsps', etc. Not the only ones that did it either; Technics (RIP in 2002) used to do that as well. And Casio is now doing that on their newest boards, and I believe Medeli as well (AKX10).

Check out this Korg Forum thread:

Why No Registrations? - Korg Forums