The saga continues

[guscar66]

Its me ---again. So trying to minimise my errors and wasted money. I have made three catastrophic errors of judgement which has cost me a lot of money (for me anyway) . Currently though , I have a Korg EK50 which I bought as an 'entertainer' board . After playing for a while the fact that the display does not show what you have stored or recalled became a millstone, one that I really underestimated. So I made my latest bad purchase ------Pa300. The volume warble on organ sounds was just unbearable in context of playing with others---despite all efforts going to the deepest menus--- nothing stopped it so back it went, well traded, because Korg said it was 'normal' -- (my oscilloscope said different , but ----) . The EK50 has actually endeared itself to me ----I enjoy playing it-----its ,well, bright and cheerful, easy to play ----if that makes any sense. However I do need something that displays registrations on demand when playing in the group.
I am now seriously considering the Yamaha Sx600. and would appreciate any input like known problems or issues . my friend who also plays keyboards was in the market for a replacement for his really old technics 5000 so we went to guitar/guitar in Glasgow to have a look and hands on------he settled for a E583 but they did not have a sx600 on display . I liked the basic setting up process for the e583 so likely the 600 will be similar , I think though that the 600 better sound engine especially for organs would suit me better. (my friend is piano biased ) Once again chaps , any input would be appreciated.

 

[Biggles]

The e series are basically aimed at the learner market so it is very strange that your mate bought one.

The Korg 300 was a very stripped down version of a 600 and only real use was as a beginner board or as a doorstop.

Forget the Yamaha 600 and look at, listen to and play the 720. The 600 is a seriously stripped down version of the 700 series.

Yes the 720 is way more expensive but you do get what you pay for.

I am no Yamaha lover but if there was no other choice in an Arranger the 720 would be a better buy.

There is still the Korg Pa 700 which is a great keyboard, it has good organ sounds and digital Drawbars via the touchscreen, and a better keybed than on Yamaha’s.

Trying to skimp with the cash will not bode well.

 

[guscar66]

Yes I hear you. Will see if I can get a look at a Korg pa700 . Unfortunately , price is the limit, I don't play professionally so can't really justify a £1000 + board. My friend is a natural , plays by ear and only really needs piano and a couple of other instruments ----he could play a board made out of yoghurt cartons and sticky back plastic and make it sound good ! (I am not worthy) he had more need of a lightweight and simple board . whilst being cheapish.
Thanks for your input.

 

[Biggles]

…….simple board.

Now, there’s the rub.

There is no such thing as a simple board that does what you seem to want.

They all tend to have a steep learning curve.

Korg Pa & Yamaha SX models are very capable but both have that steep learning curve and that leads to a long time programming the system with the songs that you want to play.

That said, once the ins and outs of the complex operating system are learned e.g. the Korg process of saving a modified Style to Songbook and saving modified Keyboard sets become second nature and can be done very quickly.

I only use Korg as an example because that is what I am used to, I’ve played quite a few Yamaha Arrangers and I am not impressed by their operating systems now with their sounds, acoustic piano aside.

 

[DynSiwmper]

The E series and SX600 are somewhat different to set up. You'll find the displays quite different as the keyboards have different target audiences. While I agree that the SX720 would be a better buy, if the price tag is a problem, maybe look for a second hand SX900 (the old version of the SX920)? I'm a Genos 2 player, having upgraded from the EW400 (I like having 76 keys), so I know what the jump between the E and SX series is like (the SX920 is pretty much a 61 key G2, bar a few minor differences), I think you'll be happy with the SX series, but the newer models really do sound better.

 

[guscar66]

Thanks for this ----no stone unturned I will have a look around for any reviews etc on sx920 ----its well up there so could be the price thing. I appreciate your input.

 

[anotherscott]

Since you like your EK50 except for its limitations in a live group setting, maybe it's worth considering keeping your EK50 for the things you enjoy about it, and getting a different kind of board for your group playing, something whose operation/navigation is more geared toward that purpose, instead of an arranger which is oriented more toward solo playing with built-in accompaniment. I'm thinking something like a Roland Juno D6 or a Yamaha CK61.

 

[mwtzzz]

Just go with a Nord Stage and don't look back.

 

[amwilburn]

A Nord Stage is a fantastic stage board... but he's asking about arrangers, which the Nord is most definitely not.

If the OP is still checking this site, Biggles is spot on: he should definitely consider an SX720 (or even an sx700) over an sx600; and the E series would be another waste of time for him as well; since registrations are one of the primary features of the PSRsx series, they're handled really well; you can chain your performances, etc.

Here's my quick recording of the Avengers Theme on a PSRsx900 (same sound library as a PSRsx720, but the sx720 adds S.Art+); being able to save & name, sort, and chain multiple registrations together is everything on the Yamahas.

The PA700 (and the PA1000) are fantastic despite their age, with the latter still having about the most impressive built in speakers I've heard anywhere (the PSRsx920's are clearer, but the PA1000's bass punch and warmth are *chef's kiss*) and you do get songbook which is similar to registrations.

The EK50 operating system is nothing like the other PA's, but the PSRsx operating system is nothing like the PA's either -- you may need to sit down and try navigating around both to see which you are more comfortable with.

The other thing to consider if regional/ethnic samples are a priority, the sx720 has many available sample packs for free :China, Brasil, Indian, Middle Eastern, but also Dance/EDM, Country, Celtic, etc etc sample packs and styles are all available free from Yamaha. Some sound fantastic (the newest China Pop, Celtic, ME packs) and some show their age (the old China pack and Indian packs were both created 2013/2014 and it shows; not just in sound quality but the sizes of the sample packs: the old China packs occupied 17mb, the new one 450mb of expansion flash ram!)

Mark

 

[Bouncingogre]

Look out for a carefully used SX-Psr 700 or SX-Psr 900
These are the models preceding the SX720 and 920.
They are very good keyboards. I had 2 of them.

Forget the PSR SX600... Both the SX700 and SX900 have a super touch screen. The SX600 does not.
Believe me... It matters. It matters a lot.

 

[mwtzzz]

Curious how the arranger/workstations are to play on stage, are they heavy/bulky - what would be the incentive to gig with one instead of using a keyboard that's designed for stage use?

 

[amwilburn]

Well, if you bring a Nord on stage without a drummer or a drum machine, without a bassist or a guitarist or a style box.... how would you do this: (my cover of Bohemian Rhapsody)

This is me playing the piano, bass, guitar solo parts on a piano arranger (CVP) while singing and changing the vocal harmony to 0, 1, 4 or 8 extra layered copies of my voice) *live* with no pre recorded midi track or pre recorded vocal. Everything is being played/sung live and on the fly (pitch bend accomplished with the right sustain pedal)

This is what arrangers can do among other things; the Nord doesn't even have an Electric guitar sample (although you could get close with a synth and the built in dsps).

If you need it portable? Yup, they come in portable 61 and 76 key versions as well (I also have videos of my playing Bohemian Rhapsody and The Show Must Go On on the Genos1&2 arrangers)


The Nord Stage 4-76 weighs 27.5 lbs. The Genos weighs 28.5 lbs.
That's not exactly a lot heavier? I mean, it is an extra pound. But with a good arranger, I don't need to bring a drum machine. Or a guitarist. Or a vocal preamp FX processor/ Harmonizer. Or multiple keyboards (I can play all the parts with 1) or a multi tier keyboard stand (I used to own a 3 tier keyboard stand to lug my 3 keyboards around; with a Genos 2 (or Modxm), my DX becomes redundant since all the same patches I use are now built in, and on the Genos 2, fully integrated with the style system (which I couldn't do before with my standalone DX7). So I ended up just recylcing that 3 tier stand (it was big and heavy and the setup and teardown took ages).

Now, with the Genoses (and ModX's) there is a disadvantage; they have plastic casings, unlike the Nord. No problem, get a Korg Pa5x. Beautiful metal casing, but now we're at 38.4 lbs. 10 lbs heavier is significant, sure, but a Nord stage4-88 is heavier at 43 lbs, a Kronos 88 even heavier at 52lbs, and a Montage M8x heavier still at 62!

And I don't need to carry all the extra equipment I mentioned above

Now who's lugging around too much?


Mark

 

[anotherscott]

what would be the incentive to gig with one instead of using a keyboard that's designed for stage use?

I have gigged numerous times with a Korg PA1000 as my "top" board over something more piano-oriented, as opposed to using the more typical "stage" choices.

One consideration is that I like to have aftertouch, especially since I do a lot of LH bass gigs where I don't have a hand free to operate a wheel/joystick. And specifically addressing your question about whether they are heavy/bulky, the PA1000 is 23.7 lbs. The lightest "traditional" suitable board from Korg was the Kronos which topped 30 lbs (and later they came out with the Nautilus AT, but even that is 5 lbs heavier than the PA1000). Lightest Roland is Fantom 6 (or EX 6) at 33.75 lbs; lightest equivalent Yamaha is Montage 6 (or M) which also tops 33 lbs, though they also have the aforementioned Genos which is under 30, but still 5-ish pounds heavier than the Korg (and pricey, and unfortunately one of the most unwieldy boards you could ever attempt to get your hands around).

There are also much lighter arrangers, btw... but not ones with aftertouch. (Korg i3 weighs under 9 lbs!)

Using a PA1000 this way is a little awkward, since its menus, operational structure, manuals, and button layouts are all geared toward arranger functions I don't use; but once you figure out how to make it do what you need, it can do it pretty well. As a bonus, it has some of my favorite orchestral instrument sounds.

One other thing I use it for is that I occasionally do small duo/trio gigs with no drummer, and I sometimes like to use the drum patterns. That's the only "arranger" function I have a use for. And the PA1000 excels at this. The aforementioned Korg/Roland/Yamaha stageoriented boards do have selectable drum patterns, and they can be quite useful, but as part of its arranger heritage, the Korgs is very flexible and easy to use for this purpose as well.

Despite it's light weight compared to those others, I still do wish it were lighter, though. Its 23.7 lbs is not the easiest to carry around. It's back-heavy, and the sloped sides with no obvious handle grip still make it pretty awkward to carry /lift. This is not an uncommon Korg complaint... Nautilus, Kronos, SV1/SV2 designs likewise make them harder to move than they should be. Though sometimes Korg has come out with some very travel-friendly designs, like putting built-in handles on the original Kross 61 and the X50.

 

[mwtzzz]

I'm hearing two things:

1 - if you're a one-man band or you are a limited duo and you need drums, etc

2 - arranger/workstation can do everything any other keyboard can do + more, at the same portability, so there's no reason *not* to use one

How does the keybed and overall build quality compare with the Nord Stage? Can you drag around the PA1000 (or your favorite arranger) to gig after gig - bars, restaurants, private parties, outdoor festivals, on stages, grass, dirt lots - and it'll hold up time after time, even after being banged around, bumped into things, etc?

 

[anotherscott]

arranger/workstation can do everything any other keyboard can do + more, at the same portability, so there's no reason *not* to use one

No it cannot do everything any other keyboard can do. But the PA1000 does *enough* of it that it has been able to work for my live gigs. While it can do some things the Nautilus/kronos/Fantom/Montage cannot, those other boards can do a LOT that the PA1000 cannot, too! It's a question of which things you have more of a need for, and within the desired price range and weight range.

For example, a PA1000 sound combination (what they call a Keyboard Set) can consist of up to 4 split/layered sounds, only one of which can have its own insert effect. A Fantom sound combination (Scene) can consist of up to 16 split/layered sounds, each of which can have its own insert effect. A Montage sound combination (Performance) can consist of up to 8 split/layered sounds, each of which can have two of its own insert effects. A Kronos/Naultilus sound combination (Combi) can consist of up to 16 split/layered sounds, which can share up to 12 insert effects among them.

Another example is that all of these boards have a large library of sample based sounds, but the Montage adds FM and virtual analog synth engines, the Fantom adds clonewheel and virtual analog synth engines; and the Kronos/Nautilus adds all of the above. All let you add custom samples, but the capacities differ, and especially for the Kronos/Nautilus which has by far the largest capacity here, being the only one that lets you stream user samples off SSD.

I'm just barely scratching the surface here. In terms of "definitions," the only real differentiating feature of an arranger is the accompaniment functionality. Other than that, each board, whether workstation-style, or arranger, or a non-workstation stage keyboard like a Nord, will have its own pros and cons.

 

[guscar66]

Ok , so kinda fired a discussion off here. You lads are demonstrably in a different league!. I just play simple accom/fills some instrumentals in a group of other like minded amatuers. We are all relatively late starters ---at best could be described as intermediate. We play covers from 60/70/80/90s. Don't need most of the facilities that all these boards offer. Just a few good organs----pianos a string or two ---some brass ---maybe an effect or two. That's about it. Beginner boards ---easy to set up but sounds generally ----not so good, and displays /methods of selection (whirly wheels) just a pain. So we fall between stools as far as keyboards are concerned. Cannot justify the cost of Nords etc. besides which they would be wasted on us.
My latest is a Yamaha SX600----and it meets most requirements---not hard to set-up registrations, it displays choices within genres ----in many ways its like the old technics . Sounds are good enough that the rest of the band notice. Win,win.
Keybed is , for me , just the job. One point noted by others-----yes you do need rhythms and backing----how else are you going to practice when not with the band??. I made that mistake with Roland VR-09 , (that and the fact it was full of 'bugs')
Anyway thanks everyone----I had a good read and ponder over all your suggestions. I feel comfortable with the Yamaha and have kept the Korg EK50 --(I just liked playing it, don't know why) .

 

[nakeyer]

Just a few good organs----pianos a string or two ---some brass ---maybe an effect or two. That's about it.

Take a look on Ketron SD1000 with any MIDI keyboard....

 

[Biggles]

If the 600 does what you need then you choose well.

The 720 is quite a hike in cost.

The Ketron would be in another league still and an even more price hike.

 

[nakeyer]

The Ketron would be in another league still and an even more price hike.

Hmmm... How much Ketron SD1000 costs in Lancashire??? Usually it costs about $300 But you are right in one moment - The Ketron would be in anothe league still!

 

[amwilburn]

Again, regional price differences. About $800 for one here, but more importantly almost impossible to find since they seem to be discontinued (out of stock in all music stores, but Amazon.ca has *one* left. The EVS is still available at $900, but that's just a module, we've been comparing keyboards; and the *cheapest* available Ketron *keyboard* in Canada is $4300 SD7... so yes, another league (here, at least). And again, there's no warranty in Canada, so a heck of a risk.

I'm guessing locally for you the most affordable Ketron keyboard would be a lot less, correct?