keyboard upgrade advice please

[mark vaughan]

ok I would like to upgrade my Yamaha psr e333 for Christmas , the three models I been looking at are casio 7200
roland bk-3 and Yamaha psr 443 , I was leaning towards the roland because of hopefully good build quality and the polyphonic number being 120 something and 7.5 watt speakers and some good features even though the most expensive at 360 then my head was turned by the Yamaha 443 arpeggiator feature and looked at a demo and looked pretty useful, so as a recent beginner I was wondering if this feature is useful in the long term or just a fun feature that I wouldn't use much ? my choice now is between the roland and Yamaha after discounting the casio over doubts around build quality

mark

 

[SeaGtGruff]

I haven't ever used the Casio CTK-7200 or Roland BK-3, but I do own a Yamaha PSR-443, so I'll discuss it.

The PSR-E443 would certainly be a good step up from the PSR-E333, because it's similar enough to the PSR-E333 that you should feel comfortable with the upgrade, but it also has some features that the PSR-E333 lacks:

• PSR-E333 has no User files capability. -- PSR-E443 can save and load User files having 100 different file names. (User files are similar to Backup files, but can be loaded from a USB thumb drive plugged into the back of the keyboard, as opposed to being transferred to/from a computer via the Musicsoft Downloader software.)
• PSR-E333 has no Registrations. -- PSR-E443 has 32 Registrations. (Registrations let you save your keyboard settings for later recall.)
• PSR-E333 can "register" only 1 external Style at a time. -- PSR-E443 can "register" 5 external Styles at a time.
• PSR-E333 can save 5 User Songs at a time. -- PSR-E443 can save 10 User Songs at a time.
• PSR-E333 doesn't have a Pitch Bend wheel. -- PSR-E443 has a Pitch Bend Wheel.
• PSR-E333 has no Functions for modifying the Voices (but they can be modified through MIDI commands). -- PSR-E443 has Functions for modifying the Main and Dual Voices. ("Modifying" in this case refers to changing the Attack Time, Release Time, Filter Cutoff Frequency, and Filter Resonance settings of the Voices.)
• PSR-E333 has no "Live Control" knobs. -- PSR-E443 has 2 assignable "Live Control" knobs. (The "Live Control" knobs let you modify the Cutoff/Resonance, Reverb/Chorus, and Attack/Release settings while playing, without having to navigate through the Functions menu-- and they can also be mapped to various MIDI control messages in a DAW.)
• PSR-E333 has no "Aux In" port. -- PSR-E443 has an "Aux In" port. (The "Aux In" port lets you feed an audio signal-- e.g., an MP3 song or VST instrument sound-- into the keyboard so that it plays through the keyboard's speakers; and you can filter out selected frequency ranges from the incoming audio signal.)
• PSR-E333 has no Arpeggio feature. -- PSR-E443 has an Arpeggio feature with 150 different Arpeggio types.
• PSR-E333 has no Pattern feature. -- PSR-E443 has a Pattern feature with 20 different Patterns, each having 5 different variations, so it essentially has 100 Patterns in all. (A Pattern is somewhat similar to a Style but is geared more toward "DJ effects" as opposed to "auto accompaniments.")

Aside from these differences (which are significant), the PSR-E443 also has more built-in Voices and Styles than the PSR-E333. Thus, the PSR-E443 should definitely give you a lot more to play with than the PSR-E333. On the other hand, the PSR-E443 still has a polyphony of 32 notes-- the same as the PSR-E333.

As for the Casio CTK-7200, I'm personally interested in it because of the features it has that the Yamaha PSR-E443 lacks-- namely, sliders for modifying the organ drawbar settings, as well as the ability to create new Styles ("Rhythms"), plus the various DSP effects. The Casio also has better polyphony than the Yamaha (48 versus 32 notes).

I'm not at all familiar with the Roland BK-3, but from what I see on Roland's web site it appears to be very promising-- and it has compatibility with GM2 and GS voices, which the Yamaha PSR-E443 does not. Plus, it has 128-note polyphony, which is far more than either the Yamaha PSR-E443 or the Casio CTK-7200.

In my opinion, polyphony is more important for "live" playing with an auto accompaniment. If you consider that you have only 10 fingers, the most notes you can play at a time are 20 (assuming each finger is pressing 2 adjacent notes, which isn't usually done unless you have "butter fingers")-- although if the notes are sustained after you raise your fingers from the keys, then some of the polyphony will be used for the sustained notes. Also, if you're layering two sounds together, each finger press will use 2 notes of polyphony-- plus, even with a single-layer sound, some sounds may be constructed such that each note uses up twice as much polyphony. Hence, the Yamaha PSR-E443's 32-note polyphony could conceivably translate into just 16 or even 8 notes played at once, depending on whether you're using layered ("Dual") Voices and/or Voices that use twice as many "sound elements" as normal. So if you're going to be using the keyboard for recording to a DAW, the polyphony might not be a big deal (after all, most classic analog synthesizers were monophonic!)-- but if you want to use auto accompaniments, or play back a multi-track MIDI recording through your keyboard, then the polyphony could be extremely important. So generally speaking, a keyboard with 128-note polyphony is going to be far superior than a keyboard with only 32-note polyphony. But even so, if you're recording tracks one at a time using a DAW, 32-note polyphony may be more than adequate.

What you really need to do is try out each prospective keyboard at a music store to see how it sounds and how it feels, so you can get a better sense of whether it will be suitable for your purposes.

 

[jmemcse]

As a stepping stone to being a working keyboard player in a band I'd choose the Yamaha. As a permanent addition for your home hobby music I'd choose the Roland.

 

[mark vaughan]

thanks for taking the time to reply guys , I had a close up look at the casio in my local music store and looks impressive I just concerned about the build quality , I do like the roland I also like the Yamaha but I cant afford both I need to find out more of the arpeggio features as to whether it is something I would use on a regular basis , as a beginner I not sure of a lot of the features above the standard rhythms and vices and accomp so I don't really which would be of more value to me , I only playing for my own enjoyment playing in a band would be a long way of , busking maybe next spring I reckon I could blag that so I guess my next question would be which would suit busking better lol I need to study the features and how they work on both models the more advanced features I mean

thanks mark

 

[mark vaughan]

I guess what i really mean is I cant see the arpeggio feature on a lot of high end keyboard so is it something that's not worth paying much attention to when buying a keyboard as opposed to being a must have feature ?

and which keyboards do have other than the 443?

mark

 

[happyrat1]

I had an arpeggiator on my Korg TR76 when I owned it, and my Kurzweil PC3K8 has dual arps, as well as my Casio XW-P1 which has not only an arpeggiator but a phrase sequencer as well and even my M-Audio Venom has one. Hell even my Blofeld Desktop Module has arps.

For a virtuoso player an arp may not be necessary, but for stuff like a cover of the Who's Baba O'Reilly or Won't Get Fooled Again or a few classic Pink Floyd tunes, it's a hell of a lot easier than trying to keep your left hand going like a machine gun for 3 or 4 minutes.

On a modern professional synth an arp or dual arps are not only a standard feature but also a highly desirable one.

Gary

 

[SeaGtGruff]

I'd think that an arpeggiator would be a pretty common feature on high-end keyboards, although the manufacturer might call it something else-- e.g., a pattern sequencer. Arpeggios are a common technique in piano playing, and any decent synthesizer should include an arpeggiator or pattern sequencer. The PSR-E443 and its predecessors don't let you create your own arpeggio pattern sequences, but it has a lot of predefined patterns that you can choose from. In the "data list" document the various arpeggio types are grouped into categories according to the types of voices that Yamaha suggests they be used with-- e.g., piano voices, guitar voices, bass guitar voices, lead synth voices, etc. In fact, when you select a (main) voice to play with, many of the keyboard's settings are automatically changed to select a recommended second (dual) voice, left (split) voice, reverb type, chorus type, harmony type, and arpeggio type-- although for most of the voices the dual, split, harmony, and arpeggio features are switched off by default. If you decide to switch them on, you'll hear the default settings for whichever voice you've selected, but you can easily change them to something else.

 

[mark vaughan]

ok that's where I being going wrong then as I been looking for arpeggio in specs and never relised pattern sequencer was the same thing ! I cant see anything on the bk-3 spec but will look out for the words pattern sequencer in specs when I look at other models

mark

 

[mark vaughan]

cant see anything on the bk-3 roland or bk-5 ? unless I missing something if it is that common then a list of models that have it currently would be helpful happy rat my budget is around 200-400 be interesting to know f any models in that price range apart from yamamaha esr443 has it I know a lot of synths have it but I need something with built in speakers

 

[SeaGtGruff]

Possibly some kind of "sequencer," not necessarily "pattern"-- could be "step sequencer" as happyrat1 mentioned.

I'll see if I can check the manuals for those keyboards to see what they say.

 

[mark vaughan]

ok thanks I cant see any mention of a sequencer or pattern on the bk-5 or bk-3 the one that does is the bk-9 which is out of my price range shame as I like the look of the rolands I seen one on a korg model looks like I will be sticking with the Yamaha e443 which is no bad thing I will keep looking though

mark

 

[SeaGtGruff]

Well, the Roland BK-3 looks to be a very capable keyboard, with or without arpeggios. From what I saw online, it costs a good bit more than the Yamaha PSR-E443-- more than twice as much but a little less than three times as much-- and as one might therefore expect, it has more presets to choose from, more advanced auto accompaniment capabilities, and four times the polyphony as the PSR-E443. If I had the money laying around to buy a BK-3, and had a choice between it and the less-expensive PSR-E443, I'd almost certainly go with the BK-3.

 

[mark vaughan]

thanks Michael I appreciate you taking the time to reply and give me advice over this subject , in the uk the Yamaha is 259 pounds and the roland bk-3 is 359 so a 100 pounds more which is not a massive jump there are things I do like on the roland the 7.5 watt speakers the 128 polyphony is impressive on a keyboard at this price and .....well it just looks nice !
I will have to look into its features and the Yamaha to see if I would really miss the arpeggio feature as a beginner I not really got much further than just playing different rhythms' and voices and playing along to acomp but I am enjoying it very much winters closing in in the uk so plenty of dark winter nights for practice after work.

mark

.

 

[happyrat1]

Just FYI, arpeggiators/phrase sequencers/pattern sequencers are generally not to be found on Stage Pianos.

They're a feature more often found on arranger keyboards and workstations.

Gary

 

[happyrat1]

I just looked at the BK-3 specs. While it doesn't mention an arpeggiator it does mention built in accompaniment rhythms.

What that probably means like most low end consumer keyboards and arranger keyboards in general is that it has some sort of autoplay feature or 1 key harmony feature that plays a complete backing accompaniment when you hold down a key or a chord on the left hand split.

It also says it can load other rhythms from Roland so that means they are probably editable.

I'd say go for the Roland. It looks much nicer than the Yamaha.

Gary

 

[happyrat1]

Here's a decent demo of the BK 3 explaining the Rhythm functions.

I double checked the specs and it includes 1/4" TRS Phones/Line Out, Real MIDI Ports as well as USB Output and USB Flash Drive Host.

Much better features than the Yamaha and it sounds pretty decent in the demo as well.

Gary

 

[SeaGtGruff]

in the uk the Yamaha is 259 pounds and the roland bk-3 is 359 so a 100 pounds more which is not a massive jump

In the US the PSR-E443 usually sells for about $250 new, although it does have a much higher MSRP-- so it looks like dealers in the UK don't offer any large discounts on the PSR-E443 as they do in the US. The price you mentioned for the BK-3 looks about right compared to the equivalent price in the US. I'll talk about arpeggios in a reply to your other post.