Combine 2 Midis from Yamaha?

[MiddleC]

I'm experimenting with trying to get more instruments in my accompaniment. I have up to 5 tracks to record to on my DGX 660.

So, I did two songs of 5 tracks each, exported them to midi files, pulled into a DAW, and exported as 1 file. I made no edits at all, no volume change, no speed change, no instruments assigned to the tracks.

What came out is garbage. Tempo seems fine, but the instruments are not what I had made the midis with, or they were changed somehow in the DAW.

Does anyone know if it's possible to combine 2 midis? To be sure what I'm asking...I am not looking to take 2 3 mintue midis, and combine to give 6 mintues. I'm not sure how else to say it other than I want to stack the instruments, 5 on top of 5, resulting in a song with 10 instruments playing their part for the song.

 

[delaware dave]

I'm experimenting with trying to get more instruments in my accompaniment. I have up to 5 tracks to record to on my DGX 660.

So, I did two songs of 5 tracks each, exported them to midi files, pulled into a DAW, and exported as 1 file. I made no edits at all, no volume change, no speed change, no instruments assigned to the tracks.

What came out is garbage. Tempo seems fine, but the instruments are not what I had made the midis with, or they were changed somehow in the DAW.

Does anyone know if it's possible to combine 2 midis? To be sure what I'm asking...I am not looking to take 2 3 mintue midis, and combine to give 6 mintues. I'm not sure how else to say it other than I want to stack the instruments, 5 on top of 5, resulting in a song with 10 instruments playing their part for the song.

You need a midi merge box; its function is to keep the channel information separated. From Google: "..MIDI Merge boxes combine the data from a number of MIDI sources into a single output.."

From Sweetwater: ".. a device that merges MIDI data from two or more sources. MIDI mergers are more than just electrical combiners (or “Y” cables); they must carefully keep the MIDI bytes of data in tact, which means they somewhat intelligently look at the information passing to ensure they don’t disrupt the continuity.

MIDI Merge box: https://midisolutions.com/prodmrg.htm

 

[rikkisbears]

Hi, did each of the tracks have its own midi channel. Were the correct bank and program changes in each of the tracks.
ie is it possible that with the 2 midi files, some tracks shared the same midi channel? Hence you need to give each track its own channel or they will merge and you end up with a mess.

 

[MiddleC]

@delawaredave, thanks, I'll check it out.

@rikkisbears... That's an interesting question. I don't know how to find the answers. Let me explicitly specify what I did.

I recorded both the same way, which was I recorded each voice to it's own track. So I had 2 midi files as results, each with 5 different voice tracks. After pressing the file control button, then selecting "User Song Save" and selecting the song, it wrote a midi of the song to the USB drive. Did that twice

When I loaded the first one into the DAW, I ended up with 6 tracks: 1 track for each of the boxes used, and one (first one the can't into the DAW) called Sysex. End results were twelve tracks listed...oh here's a pic.

You may also notice an orange triangel with exclamation point. Pic of wht that indicates"

I have no idea how to tell about bank and program changes. But your theory sounds plausabel.

 

[rikkisbears]

Hi, what daw are you using?
I’m still back in the dark ages using the old xg works sequencer. I don’t really record songs , I use my sequencer for recording/editing styles for my keyboards. I don’t require all the audio stuff the new daws have.

what that appears to be saying, you haven’t got a sound source assigned be it your keyboard or a vst (software synth)
so you need to assign midi out to your keyboard if you want to listen to it from pc.
I can’t tell from that pic if your tracks all have their own midi channels, something could be wrong, seems to be asking if you may want to change them.

try and find see if your daw has an event list editor ie the track shows up as a list of events ie notes, program changes, controllers.
should be one way of telling if each of the tracks has its own midi channel. plus I think it should also show the control changes for volUme and expression that I mentioned in my other post.
As I mentioned, not familiar with the daw you’re using, my xg works in event list edit shows up the controllers, notes etc , hopefully yours does.
did you actually record the mid files in the keyboard or in the daw.

 

[anotherscott]

I'm not too familiar with the DGX, but maybe something here will help...

If the DGX is used to create a 5 track song with parts on MIDI channels 1-5, and then to create another 5 track song with different sounds but parts again assigned to MIDI channels 1-5, and you play them all back simultaneously (by having brought them into the DAW),you don't end up with 10 MIDI channels of data, you probably end up with 5, each with some incomprehensible combination of data from the two "takes." I don't know if this entirely solves the problem, but the first thing I'd do is change the second set of 5 tracks in the DAW so that they are on different MIDI channels from the first.

Second, since this is vague form your post, make sure you're clear about the fact that MIDI makes no sounds whatsoever, it is just a record of commands, which can be used to recreate the performance. If you want it to make sound, it has to be sent to something that generates audio, typically the thing that generated the audio in the first place...that is, you'll have to reconnect it to the DGX in order to hear the playback. If you want to be able to listen to the audio even when he DGX is not connected, for that you don't record MIDI, you record audio.

 

[MiddleC]

Thanks for the input folks. I'll try to provide more info to come up out of the fog I laid , and update on what I have learned since my original post.

I apologize now for the long post. I don't blame anyone who does not want to invest the time to read this.

DAW
RE the DAW: I'm using Waveform 12. BUT...what I've experienced based on input from another forum that focuses on that DAW, as well as a couple attempts, it appears using a DAW will not do what I need. I was in fact trying what anotherscott posted...

If the DGX is used to create a 5 track song with parts on MIDI channels 1-5, and then to create another 5 track song with different sounds but parts again assigned to MIDI channels 1-5, and you play them all back simultaneously (by having brought them into the DAW)

So to specifically state my goal: Take the two 5 track files from the Yamaha and combine them into 10 tracks in the DAW , then to pull into the Yamaha on it's 5 tracks, with each using appropriate instruments on the Yamaha. I don't care if two different instruments are on the same track.

What I have found in the past is that if I pull in a midi that is more than 5 tracks, the Yamaha loads them and puts combined tracks from the midi to whatever track on the Yamaha song. Interestingly , the 'sheet music' I am playing into the tracks on the Yamaha I download from Musescore, and there was a midi version also. I loaded it up and it even put some if it in the A track (which I'm told is actually multiple tracks which are used by the Yamaha Styles. It also left a couple empty tracks.

So, re. the DAW, one thing I learned, as stated by riskisbears:

...you haven’t got a sound source assigned be it your keyboard or a vst (software synth)
so you need to assign midi out to your keyboard...

So I did do that, and of course those voices did not match the voices from the Yamaha. In fact the Drums were trashed. What I was told was that the midi does not include which instrument to use, which seems like that should be wrong to me, but I have no clue. (I find it interesting that the tracks have the names of the instruments, but that won't go back to the Yamaha). What I do know is that, at least from Waveform, there is no way to specify what instrument to use, and have that come with the midi file into the Yamaha. Really? Seems to be the case. I had assumed that the specific Yamaha instruments were indicated in the midi, and that after just stacking the 10 tracks (again, from 2 5 track midi files from the Yamaha) that the instruments already in the midi file would still be there and be used in the Yamaha. Nope.

An interesting point from anotherscott:

I don't know if this entirely solves the problem, but the first thing I'd do is change the second set of 5 tracks in the DAW so that they are on different MIDI channels from the first.

I would not expect that the midi channels would be different, based on my uneducated thoughts. My expectations are that there are 5 tracks, and each 'track' is a different 'midi' channel, but it would be the same channels for every song. But, it is my expectation that I did in fact copy then to their own tracks. The picture from the DAW shows 12 tracks in use, 5 tracks + a Sysex track from each song, totaling 12.

Unless other information brings me back, I have decided a DAW will not do what I want. An old DOS command sounds like the need:

Copy Midi1+Midi2=Midi3

But of course that would append them together, not stak them. ...Sorry, I digressed.

Merge Box

So I've done some research on the thought of using a merge box. But of course, every video I find on that concept covers a lot of complicated, multipe sources to the merge box, but don't cover the details of how/what you do with the results. I'm left with some questions.

1. Can I play each song separately from 1 instrument?
   1. One demo short video I saw seemed to demonstrate that, but didn't show what it was going to , etc.
2. When I do so will whatever instruments are used in the Yamaha when creating the midis be understood by the Yamaha after that processing?
3. What are the two files merged to?
   1. Software?
   2. What Software?

Thanks so much for you input everyone.

 

[rikkisbears]

Hi Middle c, if you like, attach an example of what you’re doing ie just record 2 x 5 track songs, even if it’s only a couple of bars long, and I can load it into my sequencer and check what’s going on. Keep them seperate though.

 

[anotherscott]

So to specifically state my goal: Take the two 5 track files from the Yamaha and combine them into 10 tracks in the DAW , then to pull into the Yamaha on it's 5 tracks, with each using appropriate instruments on the Yamaha. I don't care if two different instruments are on the same track.

Pulling it back into the Yamaha as you're saying won't work.

You can't put 10 tracks of MIDI data onto five tracks, not if you want the 10 tracks of MIDI data to simultaneously be playing different notes with different sounds. Basically the entire purpose of a MIDI channel is to allow one part to play something different from another part. In most cases, the way you make that distinction is to put them on different MIDI channels, and if you factor out the ability to put all of your parts on their own MIDI channels, you factor out the ability for all your parts to be completely independent of each other. Saying you want to play 10 parts but you don't care about keeping each part on its own track is kind of like saying "I don't care if a car has an accelerator and brake, I just need to make it go and make it stop."

I would not expect that the midi channels would be different, based on my uneducated thoughts. My expectations are that there are 5 tracks, and each 'track' is a different 'midi' channel, but it would be the same channels for every song. But, it is my expectation that I did in fact copy then to their own tracks. The picture from the DAW shows 12 tracks in use, 5 tracks + a Sysex track from each song, totaling 12.

I can't speak to the use of the sysex tracks. But for the rest, if you brought the 5 channels into your DAW and left them assigned to channels 1-5, then brought the next 5 tracks in an (in the DAW) reassign them to, say, 6-10. you could probably get the DGX to play all 10 of those channels at once... but you'd have to leave it connected to the computer to do this, because AFAIK you can't store a 10track song in the DGX itself. (Making sure each plays with its desired sound; making sure you have enough effects resources to play those tracks as they originally sounded; making sure your drums end up on channel 10 where the DGX probably wants them, are all possible additional considerations that could complicate this, and might still make things impossible. But I'm just illustrating the basic concept here, that to combine two sets of 5 tracks/channels and have them play at the same time, you need something capable of 10 tracks/channels of playback.)

Unless other information brings me back, I have decided a DAW will not do what I want.

A DAW may be the best way to do what you want... but the ultimate repository of all the MIDI (and possibly all the audio) will be the DAW, not the DGX, which I suspect in the end simply can't do what you want.

If you want to do all this in a keyboard, without a DAW, then you need a keyboard that handles more than 5 MIDI tracks/channels.

Merge Box

All a merge box will let you do is combine data from two sources and send them to one destination. It will still be up to you to determine that the data you're sending from the two sources makes sense. The problem with your "combine in DAW and send back to DGX" approach is that combining those two sources does not make sense, and a merge box won't solve that.

For example, let's say you have one MIDI source playing a violin line on MIDI channel 2, and you have another MIDI source playing an overlapping (but not identical) trumpet line also on MIDI channel 2. Any attempt to combine these (whether in a DAW, or merging some other way) will end up with (at best) either the trumpet or the violin (not both, but whichever program was called for last) playing all the notes of the trumpet line as well as all the notes from the violin line. In order for the trumpet and violin lines to be kept separate (each playing their own notes, with their own sounds), they must be on different channels (and a track only has one channel).

 

[rikkisbears]

A DAW may be the best way to do what you want... but the ultimate repository of all the MIDI (and possibly all the audio) will be the DAW, not the DGX, which I suspect in the end simply can't do what you want.

Hi Scott, I had a quick glance thru manual. It does say , receives on 16 midi channels, so using it as a sound module for a Daw should work, I assume.

when I had my Kawai Es920 piano, I wanted to create backing tracks to play along too. At the time I had my piano and my sx900 keyboard in seperate rooms. Only way I could play the backing created on sx900 was in mp3 format. Fortunately the piano could play mp3’s and wav files
Don’t know if that might be an option, or whether it would work with dgx.

 

[anotherscott]

Looking at the DGX660 manual, it seems you can play an audio backing track from USB, if it is stored as wav (not mp3). Also, once you have all your tracks in your DAW, although you cannot load 10 tracks into a 5 track DGX song, the DGX can play 16-track MIDI files from USB as well, you'd export from your DAW in SMF format, so that could be another route toward your goal.

 

[MiddleC]

I'm doing an experiment. One of the 2 5 track midis' tempo is 180. I'm trying to set it to 240. So I loaded it into the DAW, Change the BPM setting to 240. When I play it, it plays at 180.

I see tempo as a straight line in the tempo track, and if I drag the line up or down, it changes in the BPM setting in the BPM property. So it seems the DAW is set right.

It's ineresting. I loaded the file up in the Yamaha, and it showed 240 as the tempo, but when I played it it dropped to 180.

If tempo is set a different way, can you share that? Oh, one thing I thought about: when I load a Yamaha midi, it loads 1 extra track, SysEx.

 

[MiddleC]

I did an experiment. Explaining which picture represents what below:

First picture: This is the midi from Musescore of the music I am trying to duplicate. It shows 15 Tracks.

Next, this picture is the tracks I see in the Yamaha after loading the above midi. As you see, it loaded in the Yamaha as 3 tracks, plus the accompaniment:

Next picture is the file from UserSong1 (file I loaded the midi from Musescore into). It looks just like the load of the original midi:

To my uneducated eyes I don't see any problems.

rikkisbears...I have attached the 2 midi files from each 5 track user song that I played to use the Yamaha voices. (Note, this was played fast, so quality of my playing isn't so good )

 

[MiddleC]

One thing I just noticed: The songs I created, pictured quite earlier in this thread, have SysEx tracks, at track 1. None of the above hace that track. The picture of the 2 I created to make 1 each have the SysEx track. So that is actually 12 tracks.

Maybe the SysEx tracks is part of or the cause of the problems I'm having.

 

[anotherscott]

First picture: This is the midi from Musescore of the music I am trying to duplicate. It shows 15 Tracks.

Each of the 15 tracks should have a MIDI channel number associated with it, that's some of the key missing info.

 

[MiddleC]

Each of the 15 tracks should have a MIDI channel number associated with it, that's some of the key missing info.

Interesting. Even the ones generated by the Yamaha do not have that, assuming that it is not buried in the file and not displayed. I had presumed that the track number met that need. Seems redundant to need both.

 

[anotherscott]

Interesting. Even the ones generated by the Yamaha do not have that, assuming that it is not buried in the file and not displayed. I had presumed that the track number met that need. Seems redundant to need both.

In a DAW, you may have audio tracks and MIDI tracks. MIDI tracks have data which must be associated with a particular MIDI channel. You can assign any MIDI track to any of the 16 MIDI channels. Each MIDI "instrument" (piano, guitar, synth, trumpet, whatever) is on its own track and has its own channel. That's the typical way it's done, anyway.

But I don't know your DAW, and have limited knowledge of the DGX, which is why I've only been talking in generalities, about approaches that are likely or not likely to work, based on how these things usually work, without much knowledge of your particular setup.

 

[MiddleC]

I appreciate your input and efforts. It's a mystery for all of us.

By the way, I hope you didn't take my comments as a criticism... Not at all intended that way. I'm just expressing what I see, or what seems logical, to me. For example, the track labeling Track 1 etc. And then not seeing track midi track numbers.

Part of the conundrum on this thread is all of the components that each of us have varying expertise on. And software that we are familiar with may do it differently.

I do appreciate everyone's input.

 

[anotherscott]

For example, the track labeling Track 1 etc. And then not seeing track midi track numbers.

Don't mix up track and channel, there are no MIDI track numbers, only MIDI channel numbers. But that's probably what you meant.

Yeah, there should be a way to see the MIDI channel number. Of course, in a DAW, if Track 1 is an audio track (not a MIDI track), it won't have a MIDI channel number. But all MIDI tracks would have some way to show (and let you change) the channel number. (You can put any MIDI track on any channel number... which is important, since some MIDI devices only respond on particular channels.)

 

[rikkisbears]

Hi, I downloaded the 2 .mid files. Your tracks definitely would merge. At the beginning of each of the tracks, your bank and program change numbers are there ,so guessing they should play back with the correct sounds if you used daw to play song, and used dgx as sound module. You would have to assign the tracks to each have a different midi channel no.
Channel 10 should be drums.
I’ll do it with the 2 mids and attach it.
Just out of interest, dgx has styles. If you record a song with a style, does it work with the sequencer, ie can you record extra tracks?