Direct Box / monitors

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So I went to a jam at someone's house. I didn't want to bring an amp, so he told me I could get a 'direct box' and hook up to his mixing board & play thru the PA system.

Great... except I could hardly hear myself. So, how would I fix this situation? Do I still have to bring an amp so I can hear myself? If not, what kind of "monitor' could I use and how would it be hooked up? Would there be a cable going from the direct box to the monitor??

Sigh. ACOUSTIC instruments are so nice....:cool:
 
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Ah yes, you mean a DI (Direct Input) unit/box. They are used for things that do not have "balanced" outputs such as keyboards and some amplifiers, as these would damage PA equipment if plugged straight in.

(Warning - this may turn into a general PA post...)

The fact that you could not hear yourself could be due to a number of things. Check the volume level on your keyboard and the "level" and "gain" settings on the mixer. The gain should not need to be very high, but experiment (carefully!) with the levels on the mixer and the keyboard. If neither of these work, see if the DI you are using has a ground lift - that might be affecting the sound.

PA systems are complex beasts and are usually use for live sound where the audience and the musicians need to hear what is going on. Monitor speakers are used so that the band can hear what they are playing and are normally pointing at the band from the front of the stage (headphones/earpieces are sometimes used) and then the speakers for the audience are much bigger and facing them.

I would guess your system would look a bit like this:

You --> Keyboard --> DI --> mixing desk --> house speakers
|-->band monitors

In this case the desk operator controls what the band hear and how loudly they hear it. It may be that your system does not have monitors, in which case you will just be using the house speakers. This is fine for rehearsal, although you do not have any control over how loud you hear yourself - keyboards often get lost in the mix.

This post is long enough as it is, but feel free to ask more questions!
 
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Ah yes, you mean a DI (Direct Input) unit/box. They are used for things that do not have "balanced" outputs such as keyboards and some amplifiers, as these would damage PA equipment if plugged straight in.

(Warning - this may turn into a general PA post...)

The fact that you could not hear yourself could be due to a number of things. Check the volume level on your keyboard and the "level" and "gain" settings on the mixer. The gain should not need to be very high, but experiment (carefully!) with the levels on the mixer and the keyboard. If neither of these work, see if the DI you are using has a ground lift - that might be affecting the sound.

PA systems are complex beasts and are usually use for live sound where the audience and the musicians need to hear what is going on. Monitor speakers are used so that the band can hear what they are playing and are normally pointing at the band from the front of the stage (headphones/earpieces are sometimes used) and then the speakers for the audience are much bigger and facing them.

I would guess your system would look a bit like this:

You --> Keyboard --> DI --> mixing desk --> house speakers
|-->band monitors

In this case the desk operator controls what the band hear and how loudly they hear it. It may be that your system does not have monitors, in which case you will just be using the house speakers. This is fine for rehearsal, although you do not have any control over how loud you hear yourself - keyboards often get lost in the mix.

This post is long enough as it is, but feel free to ask more questions!

I think that Mourndark has it mostly right, except that I wouldn't worry about wrecking a PA without a DI box.

Without going into two much detail, there are essentially three strength levels of sound signals, microphone, instrument, and line level.

Line level is the standard signal level that is used in all professional mixing consoles and most rack effects.

Microphone and instrument level signals need to be amplified before they can be "heard" by most equipment. Most mixers or PA desks have preamplifiers for microphones, but not for instruments, and this is where the DI box comes in.

All the DI box does is take low level signals (like those out of instruments) and change it into a line level signal for the mixer.

The DI box allows you to plug your keyboard into the mixer and be heard. Now the reason for not hearing yourself could be a number of things, the sound engineer might have had your monitor level really low, there might not have been any stage monitoring at all, or there was a cable problem between the mixer and the monitor, or your keyboard volume could have been too low between keys and the DI box.

Ways to remedy this would be to get the sound engineer to play with the monitor level until you like what you hear, or to get a splitter and a small amplifier so that you can send one signal to the DI box (and on to the PA), and another to the amplifier so you can adjust the stage volume as you like.
 
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Many DI boxes ave two 1/4" jacks: one to take the unbalanced input from your guitar or keyboard and another to send output back to your own personal amp.

I recommend always having your own amp; it's the only way you can guarantee being able to hear yourself well.
 
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Many DI boxes ave two 1/4" jacks: one to take the unbalanced input from your guitar or keyboard and another to send output back to your own personal amp.

I recommend always having your own amp; it's the only way you can guarantee being able to hear yourself well.

Yeah, actually the whole point of bring a direct box to a jam in someone's basement...is to avoid carrying my KB2 amp. I have back problems and carrying heavy amps is something to be avoided at all costs.

If you're suggesting I could use a direct box and bring a SMALL amp just to use as a personal monitor... that would be a great idea.

Of course, the problem still remains whether anyone ELSE can hear me.
 
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Yeah, actually the whole point of bring a direct box to a jam in someone's basement...is to avoid carrying my KB2 amp. I have back problems and carrying heavy amps is something to be avoided at all costs.

If you're suggesting I could use a direct box and bring a SMALL amp just to use as a personal monitor... that would be a great idea.

Of course, the problem still remains whether anyone ELSE can hear me.

Laura -
You do not need a direct box to plug right into the PA - it just helps if the mixing board is across the room (or stage), in that it's easier & less prone to noise (if it's a long run betw. you and the mixer), if you run mic. cables from a DI box than to run guitar cords/instrument cables coming straight out of your keyboard(s). :cool:

And plugging the keys into a PA, even a small vocal PA for rehearsals, should give you a nice clear sound of your keyboard - you could even run in stereo, which you can't do w/the KB2. How you "fix the situation" is tell them to turn you up to a level where it can heard clearly and turn down the frikkin' guiatar amps! :mad: :)

One other thing you can do is use a small submixer for your own keys and send the signal of that to the main mixer - thus allowing you to adjust your own levels. ;)
 
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One other thing you can do is use a small submixer for your own keys and send the signal of that to the main mixer - thus allowing you to adjust your own levels. ;)

Hmmm.... never heard of a sub mixer. Thanks for the info... Learn something new every day!
 
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While a submixer is probably a good thing to have, it still won't help your problem specifically. Turn yourself up on your submixer (or, for that matter, if your keyboard has a master volume control) and it's likely that you'll just be turned down at the main mixer. Keyboard players tend to get notoriously under-mixed, even when we're doing more than just pads.

The problem with only hearing yourself out of the mains is that your guitarists and bass players will want their own amps. Guitar and bass amps add colour to the sound (that's a good thing for them), while keyboard amps are designed to have a flat frequency response (ideally not changing the sound at all). So if the mains are reasonably well balanced between instruments, the overall sound you'll hear in your rehearsal space is from both the main speakers *plus* the sound from the guitar and bass amps.

Since a large keyboard amp is out of the question for you, your best option is to talk to everyone about turning down (there are plenty of benefits from having less sound on-stage or in the rehearsal area), have the other amps in the room facing away from you, and be as close to the main speakers as you can. Stage volume is like EQing a mix: you usually achieve better results by cutting some frequencies instead of boosting others.
 
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Hmmm.... never heard of a sub mixer. Thanks for the info... Learn something new every day!

"Sub" mixer simply means a small mixer that's "mixing" some sound sources (in your case, keys) & sending a signal on up to the "main" mixer.

Sometimes drummers who play electronic drum kits will have a submixer to mix all their drum sound sources and then send a line up to the main mixer. But I agree w/Kanthos - turning up keys and turning down everything else is the key here and not always easy to achieve.
 
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Also, a submixer may be useless depending on your setup. If you have only one keyboard with only one stereo pair of outputs, a mixer will be a total waste. If you have multiple keyboards and/or multiple outputs on one keyboard, a submixer may be useful because it'll let you quickly and easily adjust the balance between individual sounds. That will be faster than you'll be able to make adjustments on most keyboards.
 
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I think I might have my answer in what has already been said in this thread, but I'd just want to make sure I've got it right.

Can I safely connect my unbalanced TS M50 directly into the TRS/XLR balanced monitor system? Here are the specs:

M50:

TS output connector, unbalanced (L/Mono and R)
Output impedance: 1.1k ohm stereo; 550 ohm mono
Max level: +16.0 dBu
Load impedance: 10k ohm or greater

Monitor/amp system:
TRS/XLR combo input connector
60k ohm balanced input gain = +0 dBu
200k ohm balanced input gain = -12 dBu
Max input level: +18 dBu input gain = +0 dBu; +30 dBu input gain = -12 dBu

This article (paragraph near bottom starting, "
Combi jacks are a welcome addition to the connector scene.") indicates I should have no problems. But like I said, I want to be sure I'm not going to ruin something!

Thanks much for your help!
 
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I think I've got my answer, with a bit of help from a GC keyboard guy who helped me get the right cables. But I still haven't had a chance to pump up the volume, pump up the volume, test, test...

For the benefit of anyone else who later comes stumbling by for information...

Usually, there is no problem hooking up your keyboard's unbalanced TS to your amp/monitor's balanced TRS/XLR connector. (If all your amp/monitor has is TRS and/or XLR connectors you will probably need some kind of cable that connects unbalanced to balanced.) However, if there is hissing and humming, the first step is to get better cable. If that doesn't work, you need a some kind of "conversion box" as described earlier in this thread.
 
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It may depend on your keyboard as well.

I use a Kurzweil PC1se and my guitarist kept telling me I should use a direct box. I bought one, and plugged it in, and it cut my volume by 50%. I promptly returned it the next day. The output strength of the Kurzweil is stronger than the output strength of my Roland XP10.
 
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It depends whereabouts in your signal chain you put it. If your amp has a line out, put it there - then you can be sure you can hear yourself onstage. How are you set up on stage?
 
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I run direct from my keyboard into a 4 channel mixer and then into the main board. I have a monitor with the main mix coming back at me out of the main board.
 
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Of course you'll have trouble hearing yourself if you're not using a dedicated monitor or amp for yourself, unless every band member has their own monitor on its own channel, so the signal coming to *your* monitor from the main mixer can have your keys boosted. Even if that's true, that's still not ideal since you don't have any control over your volume in that monitor, so if you get turned down somehow or someone else gets turned up, you can lose yourself mid-show and have no way to tell your sound engineer about it.

Your DI should have a 'to amp' output; run that into your own amp so you can hear yourself above the mix coming out of the monitor. My preference is to have the house mix coming out of the monitor I use, with the bass guitar boosted a bit, and my own amp boosts the keyboard sound to the point where I can always pick it out above everything else.
 
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Laura, you might look into getting a small practice amp and if you jam just get them
to put a microphone on your amp to also have the keyboard running through the PA.
You put the small amp close you as a monitor (so you can hear yourself), and the
PA will help the other players hear you.
Don
 
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Laura, you might look into getting a small practice amp and if you jam just get them
to put a microphone on your amp to also have the keyboard running through the PA.
You put the small amp close you as a monitor (so you can hear yourself), and the
PA will help the other players hear you.
Don

Bringing a kybd. amp. and putting a mic. on it at a a rehearsal space where there's already a PA system is silly - just plug the keyboard into the PA system directly and turn it up where you/everyone can hear it thru the PA - maybe it'll actually be heard over the guitarist... :)
 
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Bringing a kybd. amp. and putting a mic. on it at a a rehearsal space where there's already a PA system is silly - just plug the keyboard into the PA system directly and turn it up where you/everyone can hear it thru the PA - maybe it'll actually be heard over the guitarist... :)

Gigman, I don't disagree. Your comment about being heard over the guitarist is exactly why I would recommend the keyboard player have his/her own amp (even if it is small and serve as a personal monitor.)
Or, another option to be sure you can be heard could be to own the PA :D
B3
 
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Gigman, I don't disagree. Your comment about being heard over the guitarist is exactly why I would recommend the keyboard player have his/her own amp (even if it is small and serve as a personal monitor.)
Or, another option to be sure you can be heard could be to own the PA :D
B3

Right - "He/she who owns it, cranks it (for his/her channel)...!!" :p

But I think the OP was describing a rehearsal situation - in which it really is silly to have to bring your own kybd. amp when there's a PA there already... I mean, I'd hope that at rehearsal, the volume is at a lower, more manageable level - where even though there's only 1 pair of Mains (no monitors), you could still hear everything clearly.

If the OP is a kybd. player and she's getting together w/other musicians who do actually want to play music w/her in a mutually supportive and collaborative environment, she just needs to speak up - ie, "Hey, can you plug my keys into the PA and put me at a level where I can hear myself & everyone else can hear me too?"

I play in bands that just don't rehearse so I haven't faced that situation for a while but last time I did rehearse for a pickup freelance gig - I brought my own little submixer, ran my keys into it and ran L/R lines to the PA from it, so I had clear stereo sound and I could boost it or cut frequencies myself, right from where I stood, using the submixer. :cool:
 

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