Dissapointed with the Roland BK9 supernatural piano sound

[trebleclef]

Yeah, the filter suggestions were a bit of a red herring. As you noted yourself earlier, they don't work on SuperNATURAL sounds, but even on the other (traditionally sampled) piano sounds, pretty much any modern sampled piano sound will have multiple velocity layers. In the old days, a piano note might have only had a single sample, and the sound designer could use filter cutoff combined with velocity envelope adjustment to help give it some velocity-controlled dynamics, and then opening that filter (or altering the velocity responsiveness of the filter) could add some brightness to the less-than-high-velocity strikes, but these days, keyboards almost always use different samples for different velocity levels. So then you might be able to use a filter to reduce it from its originally recorded brightness, but you can't use it in the direction you'd want, it's not going to bring out brightness in the sample that wasn't there to begin with (or as you put it, it's effectively already at maximum). And resonance creates artificial peaks that are unlikely to be helpful here.



Piano is typically the hardest sound to get sounding good through an amp. It is pretty much the "go to" sound to determine how good an amp is. An amp with more coloration or weaker highs or lows won't be noticed as much on those other instruments as they are on piano. Also, for most sounds, you don't have to worry about stereo vs. mono phase issues because most sounds are mono (absent any effects).

Out of curiosity, I don't think it's been mentioned, what amp are you using?



I think sometimes "better" pianos can sound worse than lesser ones. One reason could be a difference in stereo-to-mono compatibility. I also have an "uncanny valley" theory here... that when a piano sound gets closer to real, its flaws through sub-standard amplification become more apparent.

Since you're okay with the sound at home, as you say, it may well be because of the amp and/or going from stereo to mono, even if other keyboards have been okay in that environment, and so that might be the perspective from which to address the issue, rather than adjustments to the keyboard or adding a second keyboard. But on the second board topic...



I didn't like the piano playability of the EW-425.I don't know how much of it was the particular piano sound, vs. how it played from that action. My Casio CT-S500 is pretty decent, though, if 61 keys is enough and you want something small/light and low-cost. Again, no 5-pin MIDI, so you won't be able to hardwire it directly with the BK9.

But getting back to sparing you from having to bring a second board... amp is one variable to address as mentioned... and we've mentioned stereo vs. mono, but not how to address it. Short of actually running in stereo, here's something else you can try. If you're using an output from your keyboard that sums the stereo to mono, try defeating that by just using an actual mono signal that is only one side of the stereo signal. So if you're using the L/Mono out of the BK9, try using the R output instead.

Though also, it sounded like your initial experiment with an iPad sound was reasonably successful, so maybe some more time spent on that could also spare you from having to bring a second board.

Hi and thanks for your detailed reply.

Regarding the different samples at different velocities, I have noticed that when I play very firmly, a much brighter sound is triggered with the Piano tones. But, I do have to play them hard, and it feels uncomfortable to me to play like this constantly (I come from an organ background with no touch sensitivity at all). Even with the touch sensitivity at it's lowest, you still have to play hard to trigger that sample. If I turn off the touch sensitivity altogther and change the velocity to 91 (which seems to be the sweet spot), it sounds much better but I don't want to play with no touch response.

I'm thinking that you're right with the amp situation, and maybe more detailed piano samples require a better amp. It's an old Behringer PMX2000 that I use with one speaker. I connect the BK9 to it via a dual mono lead. So two TS jacks on either end and I go from the BK9 outputs into a stereo channel on the Behringer. I have the mode switch on the amp to mono and plug the speaker into the mono speaker output, so the Left and Right channels go into the stereo channel on the amp and are then both output to the speaker. I know this is not the best setup for sound quality, but it was good enough for me with my G1000, but like you mentioned, the same environment may not work well for other keyboards. I also noticed the G1000 had much more reverb applied by default whereas the BK9 seems minimal. But again, this may be because the G1000 has lower quality samples and they made it up with reverb. Also, I don't think the G1000 had velocity switching samples as the timbre of the tones sounded the same at whatever volume. If I could trigger the brighter sample on the BK9 that I mentioned earlier but with touch sensitivity on, I think that would be good enough.

Looked at the CT-S500 and it looks like a decend board and it sounds good on the YT video by Jeremy See, although they all do sound good on YT (well, most). I wouldn't be bothered about arranger features as the BK9 styles are great (maybe a bit busy at times, but they're easy to edit).

The iPad experiment did do ok but using this setup makes me a bit nervous in a live situation as I fear either hangups or crashes. I think trying another amp (with two speakers) may be my best bet to start with as that may be all that is needed to solve the situation.

 

[Biggles]

Let Amazon be your friend!

Buy a pair of matched Powered Speakers, PreSonus Eris or Yamaha HS5 and try those on your keyboard.

If they improve the sound great if not return them FOC.

OR

Buy a Yamaha EW425, it has Style accompaniment features and 76 touch response organ style keys that may suit you better.

Again give it a try and return it if it is not suitable.

Far better to try at home rather than in store in your case.

BTW.
I would not consider any Casio with the AIX sounds, IMO they are well below Yamaha and Roland in terms of sample quality and the CT S500, well just look at it, it has Bontempi written all over it, and at £300 it does not exude quality. I tried a Casio with said AIX sounds, it arrived Friday, was sent back Monday, it was terribe. I have tried Casio C1000 & 3000 in store and the quality of the piano sounds of these were well below those DP’s by Yamaha, Roland and Kawai.

 

[trebleclef]

Let Amazon be your friend!

Buy a pair of matched Powered Speakers, PreSonus Eris or Yamaha HS5 and try those on your keyboard.

If they improve the sound great if not return them FOC.

OR

Buy a Yamaha EW425, it has Style accompaniment features and 76 touch response organ style keys that may suit you better.

Again give it a try and return it if it is not suitable.

Far better to try at home rather than in store in your case.

BTW.
I would not consider any Casio with the AIX sounds, IMO they are well below Yamaha and Roland in terms of sample quality and the CT S500, well just look at it, it has Bontempi written all over it, and at £300 it does not exude quality. I tried a Casio with said AIX sounds, it arrived Friday, was sent back Monday, it was terribe. I have tried Casio C1000 & 3000 in store and the quality of the piano sounds of these were well below those DP’s by Yamaha, Roland and Kawai.

Thanks for your suggestions. I will take a look at some powered speakers, but I will need a mixer with reverb as well as I need a microphone for the singers that I back.

 

[Biggles]

Look at a Roland Aria for vocal effects inc reverb

Or some Allen and Heath mixers have inbuilt fx inc various reverb modes

 

[anotherscott]

Let Amazon be your friend!

Buy a pair of matched Powered Speakers, PreSonus Eris or Yamaha HS5 and try those on your keyboard.

If they improve the sound great if not return them FOC.

These are not good speakers for his situation. He's fine with playing at home (where he uses headphones), the problem happens when he does live performance elsewhere (e.g. "it does sound better at home than through my headphones than it does live through my PA...The iPad experiment did do ok but using this setup makes me a bit nervous in a live situation as I fear either hangups or crashes"). The speakers you mentioned are made for home/studio use, not for gigging. For a low-cost gigging option, I like the Alto TS408 (pair required for stereo). The cheaper TX308 might be okay, I haven't heard those.

 

[Biggles]

These are not good speakers for his situation. He's fine with playing at home (where he uses headphones), the problem happens when he does live performance elsewhere (e.g. "it does sound better at home than through my headphones than it does live through my PA...The iPad experiment did do ok but using this setup makes me a bit nervous in a live situation as I fear either hangups or crashes"). The speakers you mentioned are made for home/studio use, not for gigging. For a low-cost gigging option, I like the Alto TS408 (pair required for stereo). The cheaper TX308 might be okay, I haven't heard those.

You have missed my point, Scott it is purely a functionality test.

Testing a reasonable Home setup should highlight where the issues are.

Certainly the HS5’s should give a much cleaner and bright tone.

I’ve played Rolands in Music Stores and have not experience the tonal quality issues that TC seems to have with his BK.

I am assuming that the sound sample used in his BK is the same or closely similar to that in a Juno DS or FA which are a couple of what I have played. The FP30 also has Supernatural sounds and I found that the standard piano tone was very comparable to Yamaha’s offering at this price point and vastly superior to the rather dull and muted Korg D1‘s default piano.

 

[anotherscott]

You have missed my point, Scott it is purely a functionality test.

I thought otherwise because you seemed to be suggesting possibly keeping them (i.e. "If they improve the sound great if not return them"). He hadn't described any scenario in which keeping them could have solved the problem.

We already know he's okay with the sound in stereo headphones, so the issue would seem to be that, for live use, he should look into a better speaker and/or run in stereo (or as also discussed, he could use a different piano sound from another keyboard or iPad, etc.).

It's an old Behringer PMX2000

That's a mixer. What's the speaker you're playing through?

 

[trebleclef]

I thought otherwise because you seemed to be suggesting possibly keeping them (i.e. "If they improve the sound great if not return them"). He hadn't described any scenario in which keeping them could have solved the problem.

We already know he's okay with the sound in stereo headphones, so the issue would seem to be that, for live use, he should look into a better speaker and/or run in stereo (or as also discussed, he could use a different piano sound from another keyboard or iPad, etc.).


That's a mixer. What's the speaker you're playing through?

The speaker I'm using is a Wharfedale Pro PT-12 connected to the MON/MAIN output on the Behringer PMX2000 with the mode switch set to MON/MAIN.

 

[anotherscott]

The speaker I'm using is a Wharfedale Pro PT-12

Even though I am not familiar with that speaker, I suspect that's the most likely culprit. Especially since specs for that speaker are only provided as plus or minus 6 dB. While that *could* be only indicating rolloff at the extremes, the fact that there is no provided spec for a narrower deviation (within 3 dB or less) makes me suspect that the frequency response may well be pretty far from flat.

If you want to stick with an unpowered speaker (continuing to use your Behringer powered mixer), I'd suggest trying the ZX1 from EV (a single one to start, perhaps, and adding a second if you still feel the need to try it in stereo). Or you can do what is more common these days, and switch to a speaker that has its own amplification built in (like the EV ZXa1), combined with an unpowered mixer.

 

[trebleclef]

Even though I am not familiar with that speaker, I suspect that's the most likely culprit. Especially since specs for that speaker are only provided as plus or minus 6 dB. While that *could* be only indicating rolloff at the extremes, the fact that there is no provided spec for a narrower deviation (within 3 dB or less) makes me suspect that the frequency response may well be pretty far from flat.

If you want to stick with an unpowered speaker (continuing to use your Behringer powered mixer), I'd suggest trying the ZX1 from EV (a single one to start, perhaps, and adding a second if you still feel the need to try it in stereo). Or you can do what is more common these days, and switch to a speaker that has its own amplification built in (like the EV ZXa1), combined with an unpowered mixer.

I have been looking at powered speakers from Behringer and an unpowered mixer.

I would prefer to stick to one speaker if the sound quality is acceptable.

Just not sure how to connect things up. My thoughts are to come out of the L/Mono output from the BK9 into a mono channel on the mixer. Pan it to the left and then come out of the main output on the mixer to the powered speaker.

Question here is that some mixer outputs are XLR and some are jacks. I get a bit confused with balanced Vs unbalanced. Do I need XLR sockets on both mixer and speaker or can I go from a mixer with only jacks as outputs to XLR speaker input with the correct cable?

Thanks for your suggestions btw. I'm not that great when it comes to the technical aspects of PA systems.

 

[anotherscott]

I have been looking at powered speakers from Behringer and an unpowered mixer.

IME, Behringer speakers are not the best sounding. They're okay for most stuff, but piano doesn't sound very good through them. (This is my experience with the B212D andB208D.) Like I said, piano is the toughest thing to get sounding good. For a low cost speaker, the Alto I mentioned sounds much better. The EV ZXa1 I mentioned still sounds a bit better than the Alto, it is more open on the high end, but it is also pricier, and the TS408 at least passes my threshold for "good enough to not be an issue."

Just not sure how to connect things up. My thoughts are to come out of the L/Mono output from the BK9 into a mono channel on the mixer. Pan it to the left and then come out of the main output on the mixer to the powered speaker.

Question here is that some mixer outputs are XLR and some are jacks. I get a bit confused with balanced Vs unbalanced. Do I need XLR sockets on both mixer and speaker or can I go from a mixer with only jacks as outputs to XLR speaker input with the correct cable?

Yes, you can "go from a mixer with only {1/4"} jacks as outputs to XLR speaker input with the correct cable," but usually the speaker will also have a 1/4" input jack you can use (often, it's a combo jack, where the same jack can function with either a 1/4" or XLR connection).

Balanced connections are useful for noise rejection, typically coming into play if you need to run cable lengths exceeding 50 feet. Balanced connections can be accomplished with either XLR connections or with 1/4" connections, provided that the 1/4" is a 3-conductor (TRS) connection.

 

[trebleclef]

IME, Behringer speakers are not the best sounding. They're okay for most stuff, but piano doesn't sound very good through them. (This is my experience with the B212D andB208D.) Like I said, piano is the toughest thing to get sounding good. For a low cost speaker, the Alto I mentioned sounds much better. The EV ZXa1 I mentioned still sounds a bit better than the Alto, it is more open on the high end, but it is also pricier, and the TS408 at least passes my threshold for "good enough to not be an issue."



Yes, you can "go from a mixer with only {1/4"} jacks as outputs to XLR speaker input with the correct cable," but usually the speaker will also have a 1/4" input jack you can use (often, it's a combo jack, where the same jack can function with either a 1/4" or XLR connection).

Balanced connections are useful for noise rejection, typically coming into play if you need to run cable lengths exceeding 50 feet. Balanced connections can be accomplished with either XLR connections or with 1/4" connections, provided that the 1/4" is a 3-conductor (TRS) connection.

Ok. I have been looking at the Alto speakers you mentioned and also the cheaper model. They also do mixers so I may try both.

I always thought that the jack plugs with two rings were used for stereo and one ring for mono. Didn't realize that the two rings one can also be used on mono sockets. I thought mono sockets required the one ring jack. Also didn't know that this was anything to do with balanced or unbalanced.

 

[anotherscott]

IME, Behringer speakers are not the best sounding. They're okay for most stuff, but piano doesn't sound very good through them. (This is my experience with the B212D andB208D.) Like I said, piano is the toughest thing to get sounding good. For a low cost speaker, the Alto I mentioned sounds much better.

I want to modify that... the B212D wasn't bad; and the B208D sounded much like the B212D but the relative lack of bass really hurts there (it doesn't have nearly the bass of some other 8" speakers... likely related to its very compact overall size). Nevertheless, yeah, I'd take the 8" Alto over the 12" B.

I always thought that the jack plugs with two rings were used for stereo and one ring for mono. Didn't realize that the two rings one can also be used on mono sockets. I thought mono sockets required the one ring jack. Also didn't know that this was anything to do with balanced or unbalanced.

The 1/4" jacks with two rings have three connections. Essentially, it is possible to use them for anything that requires three connections. Running stereo over a single cable requires three connections (left, right, and common ground). Running a balanced (mono) signal likewise requires 3 connections. So the double-ringed quarter inch cables can be used for either of these purposes.

It's often possible to use a cable with two rings even for a mono (unbalanced) connection (the third wire just won't do anything), but sometimes the 2-point connection doesn't line up quite right with the necessary two points of the 3-point connection, so you end up fiddling with it, i.e. "pulling it out halfway" to make it work. (At least I think that's the reason that happens.) So while a two-ring connector might work for your (unbalanced) mono connections, it's probably best to avoid that route. OTOH, if you use a one-ring connector to connect to a mono balanced 1/4" jack, it will work fine... except it will be unbalanced. For balancing to work, the cable as well as the connectors you're plugging into at both ends need to have all three wires connected. If any of them are not, you'll still get the signal, but it will be unbalanced, so you won't get the benefit of noise rejection over long cable runs.

 

[trebleclef]

I want to modify that... the B212D wasn't bad; and the B208D sounded much like the B212D but the relative lack of bass really hurts there (it doesn't have nearly the bass of some other 8" speakers... likely related to its very compact overall size). Nevertheless, yeah, I'd take the 8" Alto over the 12" B.


The 1/4" jacks with two rings have three connections. Essentially, it is possible to use them for anything that requires three connections. Running stereo over a single cable requires three connections (left, right, and common ground). Running a balanced (mono) signal likewise requires 3 connections. So the double-ringed quarter inch cables can be used for either of these purposes.

It's often possible to use a cable with two rings even for a mono (unbalanced) connection (the third wire just won't do anything), but sometimes the 2-point connection doesn't line up quite right with the necessary two points of the 3-point connection, so you end up fiddling with it, i.e. "pulling it out halfway" to make it work. (At least I think that's the reason that happens.) So while a two-ring connector might work for your (unbalanced) mono connections, it's probably best to avoid that route. OTOH, if you use a one-ring connector to connect to a mono balanced 1/4" jack, it will work fine... except it will be unbalanced. For balancing to work, the cable as well as the connectors you're plugging into at both ends need to have all three wires connected. If any of them are not, you'll still get the signal, but it will be unbalanced, so you won't get the benefit of noise rejection over long cable runs.

Ok. Thanks for the info. I think I'm gonna try a powered speaker and run from my existing behringer from the pre-amp outputs (so just using it as a mixer). If there's no improvement there, then try a small new mixer such as the Yamaha MG06X instead of the Behringer. If that doesn't improve the sound, try and find a used G1000 again!