Juno DS newbie workflow and hierarchy sanity check

[Oogie Wa Wa]

Hi forum Dwellers!

I recently got a DS61 and am trying to set things up for live performances with a multi-genre 3-piece band.

I normally play bass, and will continue doing that on the bass and/or keys (panned to the Left Output, which goes to my bass amp,) in addition to adding quite a few other things for depth on some of our songs that need it.

I have some questions. OK, I have lots of questions! My brain hurts. But as far as the workflow and hierarchy for setting up Favorites for specific songs, at least, here's how I understand it as of now. Please see if this makes sense, or provide some input on what I'm missing or have wrong.
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It looks like that if I have a Patch that will work, but I want to change some of the parameters such as ADSR stuff, octave, effects, pan, cutoff and such, I need to make those changes and put it in a User Patch. If that's all I need, I can put that in a Favorite. Or I can use it as a part of a Performance.

But normally I'll at least be using the keyboard "split" (generic version, lower case) with the bass on the left, other tone/sound(s) on the right. In order to do that, I'll need to make a Performance, which will be saved in a User Performance. I may be using the Split function some, perhaps a Super Layer or Dual, but mostly just stacking instruments up in a Performance in none of those modes. (Another question on that later. *)

So I set all that up and then I can save it as a User Performance, and then as a Favorite. Correct so far?

My old Casio also had a Mixer function, where once you got everything set up on a low level for each split/patch/tone/sound, you could go back in and make changes to a lot of the parameters on a higher level for each Part, which would all be saved to a Register, immediately accessible. Am I missing it, or are all those things done at the Patch and Performance level? I don't see anything like that separate Mixer function, unless I'm being really daft.

In fact, just what all does a Favorite save? Just that particular Patch or Performance, or are there other parameters I'm not aware of? The manuals are, uh, sparse at best with that big picture kind of info. I did look. A lot!
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* Back to the mode question for multiple instruments; Split doesn't appear to allow adding a layer, and neither Dual or Super Layers allow a split. The appear to be mutually exclusive. So I imagine that the best way for me to set things up is: to not use any of those functions, but set the bass (panned mostly left) up on Part 1 (with volume control on the third slider,) and set the Range (lower, upper) for say the first two octaves on the left only. Then add instruments (panned somewhat to the right) that I don't need to change volume on (particularly pads) on Parts 3-16, with 3 as the "main" instrument on the rest of the Range (upper three octaves.) For Part 2, I'll put the instrument that I want to bring in as a layer, so that the fourth slider controls that.

I currently have a guitar-type volume pedal on the Right Output on the way over to the PA, so I can still control overall volume of the non-bass tones/sounds that way.

Or should I be using Part 2 for the bass, and Part 1 for the main instrument? Logically that would make sense, but then the sliders are backwards.

And again, a User Performance would save all that, and saving it as a Favorite would let it be immediately recalled.

In the worst case, if I need to change something that I can't figure out how to do otherwise, I could copy the Patch or Performance, make the change, and then save that as another Favorite, right next to the unmodified one, and swap back and forth.
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Does that sound reasonable, or am I missing something? Does any of this make any sense to anyone? Hopefully there is a better way, but I sure can't see how. It will work

Thanks folks, I really appreciate the great help I get on here. And I'm sure I'll be asking quite a few more questions!

 

[anotherscott]

There are basically only two sound producing modes: Patch and Performance.

The Split function is a shortcut way to create a 2-Part Performance that is split left and right. The Dual function is a shortcut way to create a 2-Part Performance that is layered. These things can also be created "manually" by going directly into Performance mode and specifying the same parameters to parts 1 and 2 that are being automatically applied by these functions. Split and Dual are simply quicker ways to do common things. They are not really separate modes of operation. Though they do present themselves differently on the screen, in that a Split will show one sound on the left and one sound on the right, and a layer will show one sound on top of another, and you can navigate those screens accordingly, which can be convenient (e.g. cursoring left and right to alter parameters of the left sound or the right sound). But in terms of how they behave and sound, I'm not aware of any difference between using these functions and simply setting up a split or layer yourself. It's still just a Performance, with a different "front end," if you will. But yes, if you want to build beyond the 2 Parts, you may need to build it from scratch. If there's a way to build a 3-16 Part Performance where the first 2 Parts have already been created with the Split or Dual function, I haven't seen it. But also, I haven't looked. ;-)

Favorites are merely pointers. Like Windows Shortcuts or Mac Aliases. They give you a fast way to get to the Patches and Performances you use most often, or want grouped together for easy one-button changes, etc.

Yes, each Performance has a screen where you can adjust the volumes of the individual parts, which I think is similar to the Casio Mixer function you're describing. See "Performance Edit" on pages 19-20 of the Parameter Guide to see all the parameters of a Performance you can edit, independent of the Paremeters of the underlying Parts.

Yes, sliders can only be used for Parts 1 and 2, but you can also use the knobs for volume controls, and you can rotate them through being volume controls for Parts 1-4, 5-8, 9-12, and 13-16. Though if you only need the real-time control for 1 and 2, using the dedicated sliders leaves the knobs free for other functions.

Here's a little video I did to demonstrate how patches hold through transitions, but I think it also demonstrates what you're trying to do. The bass keeps playing on the left, while the right side keeps switching among different sounds in the Performance. It works well, but keep in mind that you only have 3 insert effects per Performance, so if you're going to use a 16-Part Performance to switch among a bunch of RH sounds, only a few of those sounds will be able to have their own dedicated effects.

 

[Oogie Wa Wa]

Wow, thanks, that pretty much nailed exactly what I was after. I appreciate the time you put in on the reply.

That helps explain a lot, and the manuals are starting to make sense. More sense, anyway. I see that the Phrase Pads serve a number of purposes, I'll need to spend some time with them next. At least I'm not out in left field.

I've got four weeks until our next gig, during this break maybe I can use this time to get the swap ready. If not, no biggie, we have one in January to roll it out. And then we're snowbirding for three months, hopefully I can get really good at it.

 

[Biggles]

In the Kross I layered all the instrument sounds that I wanted across the whole keybed. I saved this to user bank then made a copy to another user bank location and worked on the copy.

Then entered the menu system and adjusted each sound in turn so that it sounded only in the range of keys that I wanted.

Repeated the adjustment for each sound until complete.

This effectively splits the keybed into as many zones as I wanted.

I did use this method to split the 61 keys into four zones with a different sound combination in each. Ie Bass - Strings - Electric guitar - Pad.

Remembering to save when complete

Working on the Copy enabled me to create another similar but different version.

Maybe this will work on your Juno.

 

[Oogie Wa Wa]

Thank you, it does, and that confirms what how I want to have it set up. I haven't had the ability to do multiple "splits" until now, so I can see the possibilities. Normally I just have the bass guitar sound on the lower two octaves and use the remaining three for the other instruments. It's nice to have the ability to do both. For solos I can have that larger range, but otherwise I can have things like pads set up, which may only require a different octave each. I'm pretty sure I understand how to do that now, I'll try this afternoon.

It looks like between the zones you're referring to, and bringing the different parts in and out like anotherscott showed, there's a remarkable amount of flexibility. A steep leaning curve, but you guys are really making that a lot less daunting.

On the Casio I'd make two copies of each of the configurations I'd come up with; a standard "base" or backup one in case I totally messed up, a working copy for playing live, and a second copy for making changes and trying them. If I'm happy with the changes, I'd "promote" them down to the working level. I ended up with three sets of two banks, eight registrations each. On the odd banks were the generic setups like bass/piano, bass/rotary organ, strings, brass, etc. And the others on the even banks were song-specific. Each of the pairs of banks were laid out in the same order, which made it easier to keep from messing up.

Unfortunately when the Casio is in Split mode the display only shows the split part which is almost always a bass, so I'd have to push the registration button and hope it was the right one, they all look alike except full piano mode. So now I have a little paper chart with the song-specific ones listed. It's attached to an open area on the housing with rubber cement. At first I tried using a Post-It note, but the first outdoor gig it blew away during the second song!!! The rubber cement comes right off without leaving a residue.

Oh, on my tablet I use Lyric Pad, and for each song file the display also shows the keyboard settings up top in a different color, among other details (like dropping the bass guitar to DADG tuning.)

 

[Oogie Wa Wa]

Here's a little video I did to demonstrate how patches hold through transitions, but I think it also demonstrates what you're trying to do.

Heyyyyy, wait a minute! Thank you, that is really valuable Scott!

Now that I know enough to be dangerous, I see that you are turning the different Parts (3 through 8, I think) on and off using the phrase pads. Which obviously isn't in the Rhythm Pattern or Pattern Sequencer mode. When you select one part, it looks like it only plays that part, the other ones shut off. That's good, I get it, and I did figure out how to assign the key range for each part, thanks. But now I have a lot more questions!

Is that the way it works if you just start assigning Parts while in the Performance Mode? You can immediately toggle them back and forth with the pads once you leave the edit mode?

What if I want to use several of those parts simultaneously; like have a backing horn section going on, and want to flip on a trombone lead added to the horns, which also stays on? Can I possibly use the Mute button above the pads to do this to change the pad button functionality? Have the horns playing un-muted (say on Part 3 with the Pad 3 lit,) and un-mute the trombone, say on Part/Pad 4, to get both? And then turn it back off when I need to? (Pad 4 light comes on and off, 3 stays on.) The same for each of the other parts? Or isn't that possible, or would I use some other method?

And the bass part keeps playing, yet the Pad 1 or 2 isn't lit. (I'm assuming it's on one of those two Parts.) How does that work? Is that maybe one of the settings under the edit menu tabs to use or not use the phrase pads?

Last question (this time!); say I do get it to function the way I described, would all these settings, including possibly which Parts are and aren't currently selected to play, get saved/written into that Performance? I can't seem to find anywhere in the manual what is and isn't saved in a Performance. The Patch mode makes more sense.

Sorry to be a royal pain, but some of us seniors don't quite pick up on things very quickly! But I like challenges, and am certainly getting a ton of info from these comments, and I sincerely appreciate that. It really knocks down the learning curve. I think this thing is going to be a tremendous addition to our gigs once I get it figured out.

 

[anotherscott]

Is that the way it works if you just start assigning Parts while in the Performance Mode? You can immediately toggle them back and forth with the pads once you leave the edit mode?

Correct. When you're in a Performance, part selection is what those pads normally do, if you haven't specifically enabled them for some other function.

What if I want to use several of those parts simultaneously; like have a backing horn section going on, and want to flip on a trombone lead added to the horns, which also stays on? Can I possibly use the Mute button above the pads to do this to change the pad button functionality? Have the horns playing un-muted (say on Part 3 with the Pad 3 lit,) and un-mute the trombone, say on Part/Pad 4, to get both? And then turn it back off when I need to? (Pad 4 light comes on and off, 3 stays on.) The same for each of the other parts? Or isn't that possible, or would I use some other method?

I don't have the board set up at the moment. But IIRC, you can set a pad to toggle a single sound on and off (a horns sound or a trombone sound, to use your example), and you can set a pad to toggle multiple sounds on and off (so that the horns sound an trombone sound go on an off together), but you can't have a single pad work sometimes one way and sometimes the other. If you need to keep the horns playing but switch an additional trombone in and out as needed, what I would try is setting up one button to play horns and one to play horns+trombone, and when you switch from the first to the second, you'll have the effect of adding the trombone to the horns. Since--effects permitting--switching can usually be set up to be seamless (as my demonstration showed), this should have about the same audible effect as what you described of keeping the horns "on" while adding the trombine, even though technically, what you're really doing is turning the horns "off" and switching to the sound of "horns + trombone." IIRC, the way to turn two sounds on with the same pad is to put them on the same MIDI channel. So for this example, you could make part 3 horns on MIDI channel 3, make part 4 trombone on MIDI channel 4, and then put horns again in, say, part 16 but make it MIDI channel 4. Then when you use pad 4 to turn on the trombone, it will also turn on the horns that are on part 16 because you likewise put them on channel 4. But as I said, I don't have it set up at the moment and am typing this from memory, so I can't swear to it. It's not impossible that I mixing up features from different boards. ;-) But try it... hopefully it's at least close enough to get you on the right track. And remember that you can use the shift function so that pads 1-8 instead access parts 9-16, that can be convenient too.

And the bass part keeps playing, yet the Pad 1 or 2 isn't lit. (I'm assuming it's on one of those two Parts.) How does that work? Is that maybe one of the settings under the edit menu tabs to use or not use the phrase pads?

Right, it's Part 2, which is associated with Pad 2 (if I had hit Pad 2, all you'd hear is bass). The reason it keeps playing even when it's not lit is that there is a menu setting (I think it's the one for keyboard control, KBD)... turn it on for Part 2, and it will always play, whether the part is selected (i.e. whether its pad is lit up) or not. Turn it off for the other parts, and they will only play when they are selected with the pad.

Last question (this time!); say I do get it to function the way I described, would all these settings, including possibly which Parts are and aren't currently selected to play, get saved/written into that Performance? I can't seem to find anywhere in the manual what is and isn't saved in a Performance.

There's a Performance Edit section in the Parameter Guide which lists all the editable parameters of a Performance. All those parameters get saved when you save a Performance. I don't remember off-hand if it remembers which part/pad comes up as active/illuminated by default, though. Try it and see. ;-) But it will certainly remember which sounds are assigned to each of the 16 Parts/Pads.

 

[Oogie Wa Wa]

Excellent, I've got some work to do. I do understand your description. Will let you know. Tx!

It also gives me some other ideas to try. Since the notes in question are limited to a one-octave range, I could have the same horns patch in two different octaves of keys, and limit the trombone to only one of them. Play the one group of 12 keys with the horns, and the next 12 having both the horns and he trombone. I'd have to drop the second horns an octave in pitch so both sections would be the same.

Another idea would be just to have two Performances and save them to two Favorites next to each other.

There are probably enough horn patches that I could just go back and forth, where the horns are similar but one has a trumpet or similar sound on top of it. Even if they start off somewhat different on the horn part, I might be able to adjust parameters like Cutoff, Reasonance and such to get them close to the second one, and save to a User Patch.

Many ways to skin a cat, I guess! Such power!