Yamaha Montage Vs. Roland Fantom: Need Players Perspective for Purchase Advice:

[ElectricEddie]

Hi Guys,
Unfortunately my experience with KORG SERVICE WHICH SUCKS..... They do not answer the phone and you get a standard thank you for being interested in KORG Products as a return e-mail. I am trying to find a local KORG Service center and I have tried several times to get info. from as I live fairly close to the Farmingdale Center, and I get no help at all. I may just have to go there. But that's another topic.

I am really stuck at a crossroad of trying to decide on getting a Fantom or a Montage and Nord C2 is sneaking in the backdoor with the dual Kybd synth.

Thx
ElectricEddie

Guys,

Just an update:
Korg finally answered my e-mail, only about 4 weeks later. The info. they gave was the Farmingdale location and to bring it in. This info. I already had, duh.... I called them 5 times over a weeks period & left voice messages and they never returned any of my 5 phone calls. I had questions and I wanted to speak on the phone with someone because I knew I would have follow up questions based on their answers. So yeah I think the KORG Support/Service really SUCKS...... I found more help on the internet.

Thx
ElectricEddie

 

[itb-music]

A few more points to make then

There is a Blur and Animations effects on the Montage/MODX screen and disabling these is the first thing every user should do, so your issues with the screen may be from these "effects". Fixable in a few clicks.

About the Fantom terminology and eventually a better workflow, I guess if you are used to Roland synths you will be more at home there. For me as a long time Motif user, going to Montage was really easy.

And yes, the Super knob! Controlling up to 128 parameters with one turn but there's more to that.... each of the encoders can be a little super knob by itself, controlling up to 16 parameters!

One thing to mention is the eco-system around Motif-Montage - there is a vast amount of third party sound libraries, both commercial and free that are available, something that is still not quite available for the Fantom. Montage is compatible with all Motif XS and XF sound libraries as well. Everything from all sort of piano models, to bread-and-butter stage sounds, to style specific arpeggiated arrangements or cover band sounds.... you name it.
Regarding MODX, it's indeed a great board for gigs if you don't need aftertouch.

 

[Biggles]

In another post a member wanted to know how to change the octave of a layered instrument.

I downloaded the Owners manual and Reference manual for the Yamaha keyboard, and trawled through it and failed to find the answer.

Scott came to the Ops rescue but his answer was not something that Infound in the manual, to me that indicates why the Yamahasynth forum has Yamaha staff answering the questions because they produce cr4p Manuals and an OS that is far from intuitive.

Every Yamaha I have tried has an OS that might as well be in Klingon, user friendly they are not with layer after layer of menu items.

 

[itb-music]

In another post a member wanted to know how to change the octave of a layered instrument.

I downloaded the Owners manual and Reference manual for the Yamaha keyboard, and trawled through it and failed to find the answer.

Scott came to the Ops rescue but his answer was not something that Infound in the manual, to me that indicates why the Yamahasynth forum has Yamaha staff answering the questions because they produce cr4p Manuals and an OS that is far from intuitive.

Every Yamaha I have tried has an OS that might as well be in Klingon, user friendly they are not with layer after layer of menu items.

Creating a split is clearly explained on page 42 of the MODX User Manual (could be a different page for the Montage User manual, cannot really bother to check right now). A simple search for the word "split" in the PDF brings 7 results, so I cannot imagine how it could be easier to find it.
It's also listed in the Index for the User Manual where all terms you may want to look for are listed.

 

[ElectricEddie]

Thx for the advice guys.....

ElectricEddie

 

[Biggles]

Creating a split is clearly explained on page 42 of the MODX User Manual (could be a different page for the Montage User manual, cannot really bother to check right now). A simple search for the word "split" in the PDF brings 7 results, so I cannot imagine how it could be easier to find it.
It's also listed in the Index for the User Manual where all terms you may want to look for are listed.

Forget a Split that was not the point at all, try looking for a Layered set of sounds, info on them and how to adjust the octave of a single sound is pretty useless in the manual.

 

[itb-music]

Forget a Split that was not the point at all, try looking for a Layered set of sounds, info on them and how to adjust the octave of a single sound is pretty useless in the manual.

It's hilarious because what you are asking for is explained on the very same page 42...
Technically splits and layers are no different. These are two or more parts that are controlled by the keyboard simultaneously and may have different key range, velocity range, etc. Quote from the now famous page 42:
"1. Move the cursor to Part 2 and press the [EDIT] button for Part edit.
2. Touch the [Part setting] tab at the left side of the screen > [Pitch] tab.
3. Select “Note Shift” to adjust the Pitch. The pitch is shifted in semitone steps."

There's also screenshot in the manual, in case you get confused.
I understand that Yamaha software and manual wounded you deeply and such scars never heal, but maybe, just maybe, if you have actually tried, you may have succeeded. A tab called Pitch.... a value called Note Shift... it's self explanatory!

 

[Biggles]

It's hilarious because what you are asking for is explained on the very same page 42...
Technically splits and layers are no different. These are two or more parts that are controlled by the keyboard simultaneously and may have different key range, velocity range, etc. Quote from the now famous page 42:
"1. Move the cursor to Part 2 and press the [EDIT] button for Part edit.
2. Touch the [Part setting] tab at the left side of the screen > [Pitch] tab.
3. Select “Note Shift” to adjust the Pitch. The pitch is shifted in semitone steps."

There's also screenshot in the manual, in case you get confused.
I understand that Yamaha software and manual wounded you deeply and such scars never heal, but maybe, just maybe, if you have actually tried, you may have succeeded. A tab called Pitch.... a value called Note Shift... it's self explanatory!

I rest my case

What lame brain puts a octave shift for a Layer in the Split section of the Manual?

In the index the only entry with the term Pitch relates to the Pitch Bend.

Klingon is easier to follow than a Yamaha Manual.

 

[TooTone]

You have two methods of changing the pitch of "a sound" on the Montage/MODX.

1) You can "Note Shift" it. This effectively "moves the keys" under which you are playing that sound. It is ideal when using keyboard splits, where the keyboard is effectively divided in zones. But if the only spare space left on the keyboard is up at the high end, you can put your "sound" there and then Note Shift it down 2 Octaves, so it sounds like its being play around Middle C. In the case of AWM2/Sample Engine, the samples played are correct for the shifted zone... not stretched (or vice versa chipmunked).

2) You can set a fixed Pitch Shift (both Coarse Tune and Fine Tune), which can go 4 octaves up or down. Although if you are shifting 4 Octaves some samples can sound a bit strange (but hey... that's a good thing for some sound designers).

You can do Note Shift Per Part (up to 8 Parts per Performance/Patch). You can layer and split those Parts however, or wherever you please... very powerful option IMO. Layers and Splits can be defined by Key Range, Velocity Range, Scaling or all three.

You can do Fine/Coarse Tune per Element (8 Elements per Part). I frequently use this for playing multiple Octaves on a Single Key. You can also split and layer Elements within a Part, as long as they fall within Keyboard and Velocity ranges set by the Part.

I'm no Synth Guru, but the Montage/MODX, to me, seems incredibly powerful and versatile. The core perceived problem to many is that it is overly complex. The truth is, any perceived complexity is born of its increased versatility. It isn't complex once you get going, there's just a lot more stuff to learn, and therefore make use of.

If it had a "Simple and Straightforward" OS, no doubt there would be hordes of Synthists complaining it was underpowered or lacking in features. You can't please everyone.

 

[anotherscott]

I rest my case

What lame brain puts a octave shift for a Layer in the Split section of the Manual?

The manual in question is written in a tutorial fashion. The last part of Page 41 tells you how to create a layer by placing a sound in Part 2 (the previous part of the manual had you putting a piano sound in Part 1). It appears like this:

Then Page 42 goes on to tell you how to do a split; and then the next part (also on page 42) tells you how to change the pitch of Part 2, which applies equally to split or layer, because both of them involve placing a sound in Part 2, as seen here:

But because it's a tutorial, it's presented as a sequence of educational exercises, rather than isolating each item into a self-contained nugget. So if you were to follow along, it's a 4-step exercise to get where you want: (1) Place a sound in Part 1, (2) Add a second Part which will play as a layer, (3) change the key ranges of the Parts to turn your layer into a split, and (4) change the pitch of Part 2. You do need it realize that you can change the pitch of Part 2 even if you had left it as a layer and not bothered creating a split, which you presumably would if you were following the tutorial from the start as intended, but yes tutorials can be problematic that way, i.e. that would not be easily discovered if you had skipped the tutorial aspect and just jumped into reading step 4 out of context. You could come away with the impression you got, i.e. "why are they only talking about changing the pitch of a part in a Split, when I want to change the pitch of a part in a Layer?" But it really is the same thing, and if you'd found it in context of the 3 preceding steps in the exercise, it would have made sense.

In the Reference Manual, each operation is explained independently, whereas in the tutorial manual things are explained in the context of other things. The problem is that there is a bit of a catch-22 in that it can be hard to find stuff in the reference manual unless you already have a basic understanding of how things are structured (which is part of what the tutorial is supposed to give you).

I'm not giving Yamaha a pass here. I agree with you that the descriptions in the manuals and the ease of finding things should definitely be better! I'm just saying that it's not as bad as how you were seeing it in the example you gave, if you can see why it's presented the way it is. Part of the problem is also that it can be hard to find things cold if you don't already know Yamaha's jargon. Though probably every brand has that to some extent.

 

[polo]

Any update...?

I too, was (am) having the exact same debate...

Fantom for its pure aesthetic looks, display, workflow, power, etc... The Montage looks like a piece of industrial machinery - the Fantom looks more like a "musical instrument" (as much as it can...)

Yamaha for its actual sounds/voices/instruments... modeling (Roland) to me will never sound as good as sampling (Yamaha)...

Thought of the Fantom and just sampling all of the instruments into it - but that's a pain, etc...

Really wish Yamaha would come out with the new successor to the (now over 6 year old) Montage.

 

[Goodness]

HI Guys,

Thx for the insight.

I do not bother with the lower end of any keyboards or any products for that matter. I prefer to buy the best since the best usually preforms better in the long run and lasts better over time since they give you a bit more of a kybd, of course that's why they have different models at different price points...LOL... Plus you only live once....LOL...

I have owned several Korgs & few Roland products and have had them for years. I take good care of my equipment and have played many a gig. Some of the kybd's which are showing now some basic issues like for instance, I had 2 Korgs memory died because the internal battery died. Then a Roland JX-3P the 1st Octave died which looks like the circuit under the rubber pads that the keys make contact with when played died. All of these 3 boards are 30-40 years old, bought new (original owner). I never really had any issues with any of them other then a splash or two of Rum & Coke on the keys...LOL... and maybe a little dust...

Yamaha is a big name and I believe they stand behind their products and for a Flagship Keyboard, especially at the price they are asking $$$$. Same with Roland. My biggest concern really is more from the creativity side of things and how the workflow lays out getting in & out of parameters while creating sounds and or writing songs.

ex. The Roland has a bit more of Analog controls. I prefer to have some physical knob to turn rather than going into a parameter on a screen and making an change. What's nice about multiple Analog knobs is you can change 2 or 3 parameters at the same time. You can not do that with a digital parameter on a screen.

" I am Still on the Fence"....LOL...

PS.[Bam on Long Island, If u guys know of any reputable Authorized Service locations that you have had work done at them, or know someone who did, I would love to hear how it worked out and if Good, where the Service Center was.

Thx
ElectricEddie

Hi Guys


First off, let me say that I really like Montage & the Fantom both.

I am still not sure after months of researching the Montage & the Fantom which one I like better. However taking that long I think just shows you how much I like both. I can tell you that I have a good amount of experience with Synth's. Now while shopping for a new board I have compared the Montage & the Fantom. From a person who has not done a Deep Dive into either and approaching the 2 Kybd's for the first time, I found the Fantom is much easier to understand. At least it was for me standing there in the music store for a few hours comparing both. Also I found that the screen on the Fantom was clearer and sharper and just looked more impressive with its styling and color's. It had an easier "On Screen Workflow". I felt the workflow was easier than the Montage. The Montage I was kind of disappointed since I like it a lot, to find the screen to be a bit blurry and confusing and some of the parameter terms were not as familiar to me as the terminology on the Fantom. So for ease of use and Screen clarity, it goes to the Fantom.

Having owned the TR-606, TR-707 & TR8 Drum machines. I like the Similar programming buttons on the Fantom which have multiple uses. Recording and building songs seems to be easier as well on the Fantom. One drawback is the 32 bar length on songs, it should be longer maybe 64???. As for the Montage the "Beat Sync Audio" feature sounds like a nice feature to sync the sequencer with a Mic in the Kick drum to keep the drummer and Sequencer in time. However, I hear it does not work 100% all of the time. It been brought to my attention that anything other than a "4 on the Floor" beat it will lose Sync. Odd time signatures are possibly an issue for it to stay in time with as well. Beat correction needs to be applied, just something else to keep an eye on in a live performance, as if there's not enough other things going on.. LOL...

As for Sounds:
Put aside the Zen-Core & V-Piano AWM & FM-X engines etc. The bottom line is how does it sound? Are the sounds useable and in the style of what music you are creating? I feel that they both have some great sounds. I have seen YouTube comparisons in where comparisons are made between 2 similar sounds from each Kybd's. ex. Brass to Brass , Rhodes to Rhodes, Pad to Pad etc. and they try to find the most similar sounding patch on each Kybd. The DKS Web site has a Very Good comparisons on YouTube. The end result is ex. Strings to Strings, in your ear may sound better on the Montage while the Brass to Brass may sound better on the Fantom. Its all subjective.

Sound to Sound both keyboards sound Great. So workflow becomes a deciding factor, I think at least for me. If you can't manipulate the Menu's well enough or fast enough to get thru them, you will not be happy and will get frustrated and may not get the desired results. So Workflow starts to become a critical point. Remember Workflow is very important since creativity waits for no man. If you have to interrupt the creative flow by figuring out how to do this, or how to do that, than by the time you do make the desired change in the Menu, the creative energy is diminished (No Pun intended). For that reason I think I am leaning towards the Fantom 7. Ed Diaz has some Great YouTube Clips available for learning on the Fantom, approx. 61 Clips and most are fairly short (3 to 6 mins.) & to the point which is nice, better than some that are 45 to 60 mins long and do more selling than explaining as I found with a few of the Montage Clips on YouTube.

However one of the things that keeps pulling me back to the Montage is The "Superknob" which I think is way Cool.... The Montage also has a few sounds that I was very impressed by. Also the Scene "DJ Montage" and several others were awesome. I am not sure if there are some Scenes like "DJ Montage " already set up in the Fantom or rather you need to build them yourself. In the Montage, I believe you may be able to take the structure of the "DJ Montage" and use it and substitute other sounds in its Zones to create your own Scene, sort of use it like a Template.

Also I like the location of the Zone buttons closer the the Key bed on the Montage. On the Fantom they are located above the the Zone Faders, further from the Key bed. Closer makes for easier & faster changes during a live performance. Another thing to consider is that the Montage has a little brother, so to speak, The ModX. Instead of lugging around a 37lb. Montage, I was thinking since they are similar with the same sound engines, that sounds (to an extent) could be built at home on the Montage and transferred to the ModX for playing out live, therefore hauling around a keyboard that weighs half of the weight. So why not get both the Montage & the ModX.

Still on the fence, but the pickets are starting to hurt and I am starting to fall off the fence for the ..................................Fantom7.


Thx

Rtoland Juno DS allows you to select between Vendor and Generic Driver for USB. Generic is fully class compliant.

Meanwhile my $500 Yamaha mixer has a sound card which is NOT Class Compliant.

And my experience with Yamaha? Their CSRs make no apologies for their non functional gear.

Gary

ElectricEddie

 

[polo]

You might want to watch this YouTube video to help you make your choice - it did me.

 

[polo]

Not sure if you saw these...

 

[anotherscott]

You might want to watch this YouTube video to help you make your choice - it did me.

So, which did you choose?

(I don't think we ever found out what ElectricEddie chose, if he did.)

 

[polo]

So, which did you choose?

(I don't think we ever found out what ElectricEddie chose, if he did.)

Between the Montage 8 and Fantom 8 - the Montage... it pretty much came down to what it should (for me) - and that is the sound.

There is really no comparison between the "instrument " sounds (pianos, strings, orchestras, guitars, etc.) - the Yamaha (with its sampling) wins hands down (over Roland's modeling, etc.)

And then the Montage's Super Knob (you can turn the flashing off, and also choose a color you like, etc.) - its function is simply amazing... Nothing like it on any other synth...

As far as synth sounds - it's pretty much a draw - Yamaha's DX7, etc. vs. Roland's... might give Roland the edge on synth sounds.

I kept getting caught up on looks/aesthetics... the Fantom looks much more pleasing to me than the Montage...

The Fantom is also a bit more powerful than the Montage - and has a better work flow for those who need it.

I just came down to the sounds.

 

[anotherscott]

I tend to agree... from what I've been able to tell so far, I'd give the edge to Yamaha over the Roland for most acoustic instrument sounds, but there are some exceptions, some acoustic instrument sounds I think are as good or better on the Roland. But some of that is subjective, too. In terms of the synth, just because of the underlying tech, Yamaha will be better at FM sounds, Roland will be better at virtual analog. And Roland is better at tonewheel organ.

I haven't really looked into the superknob, but as to there being nothing else like it, conceptually, it seems to remind me of the Morph function on the Nord Stage series (and other Nord synths), where you can set a control to simultaneously alter numerous parameters across numerous sounds. I'd imagine, like most things, the Nord probably does it more simply, but the Yamaha gives you more flexibility.

 

[lmederos]

Between the Montage 8 and Fantom 8 - the Montage... it pretty much came down to what it should (for me) - and that is the sound.

There is really no comparison between the "instrument " sounds (pianos, strings, orchestras, guitars, etc.) - the Yamaha (with its sampling) wins hands down (over Roland's modeling, etc.)

And then the Montage's Super Knob (you can turn the flashing off, and also choose a color you like, etc.) - its function is simply amazing... Nothing like it on any other synth...

As far as synth sounds - it's pretty much a draw - Yamaha's DX7, etc. vs. Roland's... might give Roland the edge on synth sounds.

I kept getting caught up on looks/aesthetics... the Fantom looks much more pleasing to me than the Montage...

The Fantom is also a bit more powerful than the Montage - and has a better work flow for those who need it.

I just came down to the sounds.

I've been reading this thread since I have a similar quandary (Fantom 06 vs MODX6). I come from the Yamaha side, and to me CFX piano sound is important. I must admit the Roland workflow seems cleaner, but I can't really say I'm familiar with the Roland sound. And for me sound is king.

I would appreciate if you know of any other comparisons.

 

[anotherscott]

I've been reading this thread since I have a similar quandary (Fantom 06 vs MODX6). I come from the Yamaha side, and to me CFX piano sound is important. I must admit the Roland workflow seems cleaner, but I can't really say I'm familiar with the Roland sound. And for me sound is king.

Regarding "sound is king," here's an alternate perspective: Considering how easily both the Montage/MODX and Fantoms allow you to integrate external sounds (e.g. from an iPad), sound is actually an area where you can supplement the board to shore up any shortcomings in particular sounds. (And at least for home/studio use, there is the world of VSTs as well.) But there are other aspects that cannot be improved (or as easily, or to the same extent), like the action, the on-screen interface, the control surface/ergonomics and other functionalities... the sum of the features, feel, and as you said, workflow. I'm not saying sound wouldn't still be an important consideration, only that it might also be seen as one of numerous considerations to balance, since it is somewhat "fixable" and especially since you're almost certainly likely to find some sounds you prefer on each; and that, in the end, I think both boards probably have "good enough" sounds to be pretty satisfying in most categories. Though I can also see where if, for example, you're very piano-focussed, that would be an understandable thumb on the scale for the one that sounds/feels more satisfying as a piano. And if a board's best sounds line up well with the sounds you most need, it is nice not to have to think about supplementing with some other device.

I would appreciate if you know of any other comparisons.

This spreadsheet I did not long ago might be of interest. Sound and action being subjective, this is strictly a comparison of some key features/functionalities.

Midrange "Do Everything" Boards

Sheet1 (models ordered by release date),Yamaha MODX/MODX+,Kurzweil PC4,Roland Fantom-0 SOUND ENGINES ...sample,up to 8 elements per part, plus single instruments can be made of multiple parts; 128 polyphony mono or stereo,up to 32 layers per part, 256 polyphony mono (128 stereo),up to 4 partials...

docs.google.com

 

[polo]

I've been reading this thread since I have a similar quandary (Fantom 06 vs MODX6). I come from the Yamaha side, and to me CFX piano sound is important. I must admit the Roland workflow seems cleaner, but I can't really say I'm familiar with the Roland sound. And for me sound is king.

I would appreciate if you know of any other comparisons.

Go to YouTube and search "Montage vs. Fantom" and there are several videos...

Have fun!