BIG Question?

[JimDavis]

I mean, BIG Q for me...

I know this is a common dilemma for most people trying to get into keyboard arena...

Simply put, my question is; Creativity-wise is arrangers a way to go or a workstation style keyboard is more suitable for this purpose?

I am a novice-intermediate keyboard player and my goal as an hobby at home to spend some time to make music of my own. I'll try to create jingles like we hear in the beginning of 5 o'clock news hour on TV in old days or TV series style themes, Enya style songs, Enigma's (sadness) style music and few dance, techno style rhythmic songs like Depecehe Mode or Pet Shop Boys styles... (Yes I know I am old)

I don't want to use DAW or any other system by attaching a computer to my keyboard. My budget allows me to have one keyboard not stacked up ten of them like Kebu...
Again I'll be doing this purely my own pleasure and not for commercial purposes.
I need to be able to create my music and easily be able to record on my instrument.

I was looking PSR-SX 700 or 900 and also Roland Fantom 07.... These are in my budget range...
The arranger makes my level keyboard player sound good easily but I feel like (may be wrongfully) Arrangers keeps everything in a pre-formed shapes and within some certain limits while a Fantom 07 like instrument gives creativity almost a blank check. Create any sound you want, any rhythm you design etc., etc.

Am I wrong in this way of thinking?

 

[Chris Laarman]

Allow me to describe my situation as an answer, some guidance rather than an "only way to go".

My aim in music is (roughly) to resume my 1990 recordings of dozens of my own songs. I'm "circling around" (like a bird of prey) to find the best approach, and I have "invested" in quite some gear.

I have received my arranger keyboard (Thomann AK-X1100, slightly lesser version of Medeli AKX10) a few days ago. My first one, but I have used Band-in-a-Box ("BiaB", accompaniment software) since 1995.
I don't think that either approach will help me much - unless I should develop my own styles (content, not the genres contained in them) in their formats.

I expect my Fantom-08 to do a far better job, as long as I'll record snippets ("patterns") that I can keep using, thus amounting to "styles". It features a pattern-based sequencer, and I hope to import the patterns I created in 1990. ("Importing" is likely to amount to "recreating".)

Still, the Fantom won't be the ultimate piece of gear. I expect to use non-electronic gear, too. And my voice, which will be quite an effort. So my ultimate device is likely to be a multi-track recorder (Zoom R24) or pattern-based sequencer software after all.
The "non-electronic gear" includes a real snare-drum and brushes. There is also non-keyboard MIDI-gear involved, like wind controllers.

Oh yes, there'll definitely come a time to look back (for me or my heir) to wonder why I bought so many pieces of musical gear. But I'd feel limited in creating if I had that hindsight beforehand...

This is a "short" reply. ;-) - I hope that it proves helpful.

 

[anotherscott]

The fundamental difference between "arranger" and "workstation" is that the arranger is designed to auto-generate backing tracks for you (in the style of your choice) as you play, whereas the workstation has a sequencer which is designed to function more like a multi-track tape recorder where you create exactly what you want, one track at a time.

PSR-SX700/900 are arrangers. You're not limited entirely to the built-in styles (you can edit/create your own, as shown at

), but it is still designed to build your backing track out of loops as you play.

The Fantom-07 is not really either an arranger nor a workstation, though it has some attributes of each. Like an arranger, it includes drum patterns with on-the-fly controls for varying the pattern for different sections of the song. It also has a sequencer, but one that is designed primarily for creating things out of loops. It does not have all the functionality of a more traditional sequencer. You can see how it works at

and then

(they show the bigger Fantom, but the relevant functionality is basically the same).

So in terms of creating a song, the PSR and Fantom are both basically loop-based, but I think I'd differentiate the way they use loops, in that the PSR is designed to alter the loops as you play based on what you're playing, whereas the Fantom is designed for you to manually organize the loops into an order that will create the final structure you want.

If you don't want to build the song out of loops, there are other boards that have traditional workstation-style sequencers. You might want to look at a Korg Nautilus or Krome EX. You could also look at Korg's PA700/PA1000 arrangers, which unlike Yamaha's arrangers, also include traditional sequencer functions.

Also, I understand you don't want to attach a computer, but there are also DAW-style sequencers for iPad, which can feel a bit more "built in" than using a traditional computer, since the iPad itself can be pretty small and operated entirely from its touchscreen. But if you don't happen to already own an iPad, that's going to add another significant budget item. But it is at least a way you might add that additional sequencer functionality in the future, if you decide that either the PSR-SX700/900 or Fantom-0 is really the board you want regardless. That might be the way to go if you prefer one of those boards for other reasons, or if you think their song creation abilities are likely to be good enough at least to start with, but don't want to rule out having that other sequencer functionality in the future, still without tying you to a traditional computer.

 

[Biggles]

You are looking at the wrong keyboards, with the Yamaha’s, their onboard recording features are miles behind the Korg Pa range.

The Roland 06/07/08 range have limited onboard recording features and as Scott advises it does seem more designed for creating loops.

With the Korg’s sequencer you can create whole songs or loops or phrases or even elements of a Style which can be put together to create your own Style.

The video is of Kris Nicholson creating a Style on a Korg Pa1000

 

[Chris Laarman]

You are looking at the wrong keyboards, with the Yamaha’s, their onboard recording features are miles behind the Korg Pa range.

The Roland 06/07/08 range have limited onboard recording features and as Scott advises it does seem more designed for creating loops.

With the Korg’s sequencer you can create whole songs or loops or phrases or even elements of a Style which can be put together to create your own Style.

The video is of Kris Nicholson creating a Style on a Korg Pa1000

Korg: I recently shopped for a Pa4X Oriental. In the process of considering alternatives, I noticed poor availability (and high prices) for several arranger keyboards. It had me resort to a Thomann AK-X1100.

However, I think that arranger keyboards wouldn't serve JimDavis best. [matter of opinion] ;-)

 

[JimDavis]

The fundamental difference between "arranger" and "workstation" is that the arranger is designed to auto-generate backing tracks for you (in the style of your choice) as you play, whereas the workstation has a sequencer which is designed to function more like a multi-track tape recorder where you create exactly what you want, one track at a time.

PSR-SX700/900 are arrangers. You're not limited entirely to the built-in styles (you can edit/create your own, as shown at

), but it is still designed to build your backing track out of loops as you play.

The Fantom-07 is not really either an arranger nor a workstation, though it has some attributes of each. Like an arranger, it includes drum patterns with on-the-fly controls for varying the pattern for different sections of the song. It also has a sequencer, but one that is designed primarily for creating things out of loops. It does not have all the functionality of a more traditional sequencer. You can see how it works at

and then

(they show the bigger Fantom, but the relevant functionality is basically the same).

So in terms of creating a song, the PSR and Fantom are both basically loop-based, but I think I'd differentiate the way they use loops, in that the PSR is designed to alter the loops as you play based on what you're playing, whereas the Fantom is designed for you to manually organize the loops into an order that will create the final structure you want.

If you don't want to build the song out of loops, there are other boards that have traditional workstation-style sequencers. You might want to look at a Korg Nautilus or Krome EX. You could also look at Korg's PA700/PA1000 arrangers, which unlike Yamaha's arrangers, also include traditional sequencer functions.

Also, I understand you don't want to attach a computer, but there are also DAW-style sequencers for iPad, which can feel a bit more "built in" than using a traditional computer, since the iPad itself can be pretty small and operated entirely from its touchscreen. But if you don't happen to already own an iPad, that's going to add another significant budget item. But it is at least a way you might add that additional sequencer functionality in the future, if you decide that either the PSR-SX700/900 or Fantom-0 is really the board you want regardless. That might be the way to go if you prefer one of those boards for other reasons, or if you think their song creation abilities are likely to be good enough at least to start with, but don't want to rule out having that other sequencer functionality in the future, still without tying you to a traditional computer.

Thank you for the detailed explanation. I agree iPad could be more like a part of the instrument since it is going to be like an additional touch screen to the Fantom 07's screen... Thankfully I have 2 iPads, a Pro and a mini.

As a keyboard I am not tied up to any specific brand or model as long as user interface is a little more beginner/intermediate level keyboardist friendly...

As of tonight I am checking the Akai MPC Key 61 on YouTube...

I am sure there will be more options as I continue to research but it is hard to figure out without hands on experience how friendly is their user interface since i don't want to get a 4 yr MIT degree to program a song...

As for the music creation this is the kind of process I like to go and this is the kind of music I am trying to create:

Between 3:00 - 4:00

 

[Chris Laarman]

As a keyboard I am not tied up to any specific brand or model as long as user interface is a little more beginner/intermediate level keyboardist friendly...
[...]
I am sure there will be more options as I continue to research but it is hard to figure out without hands on experience how friendly is their user interface since i don't want to get a 4 yr MIT degree to program a song...

Me, I tend to watch YouTube reviews and download user manuals. Together, these give me an impression of the features, the ease of use, and (in the case of musical instruments) the sound(s). - No, I don't learn the manuals by heart, but they are likely to show the connections and the controls. And I can search the manual for keywords ("aftertouch", "scale").
The YouTube videos may explain to me what a device is, in the first place (like a "DI box"), then what choice I have. And during the whole process, I may browse the Web for availability and prices.

2022 was bound to become a peak year in my spending on "making music", and so far only two small purchases have disappointed me: back pads for accordions. They are to be returned. - But, of course, others may feel comfortable taking different approaches.

 

[JimDavis]

FF to minute 3:00 of this video pls and listen

This is what I want to do with some unique sounds on top of it as lead... May be some female vocals too...

 

[anotherscott]

May be some female vocals too...

If the vocals are short/repetitive phrases, you might be able to incorporate that via sampling functions, but if you are looking for a more traditional multi-minute lead vocal track, you'd want a linear (rather than loop-based) sequencer and something with suitable audio recording capabilities, which I think would prompt a closer look at Nautilus.

There are other ways to do it... for example the PA700/PA1000 let you overlay a recorded audio track, but in a much more limited fashion. It is immediately made part of an MP3 that includes the audio track and all backing tracks, so no further editing is possible.

 

[JimDavis]

If the vocals are short/repetitive phrases, you might be able to incorporate that via sampling functions, but if you are looking for a more traditional multi-minute lead vocal track, you'd want a linear (rather than loop-based) sequencer and something with suitable audio recording capabilities, which I think would prompt a closer look at Nautilus.

There are other ways to do it... for example the PA700/PA1000 let you overlay a recorded audio track, but in a much more limited fashion. It is immediately made part of an MP3 that includes the audio track and all backing tracks, so no further editing is possible.

I am thinking mostly short phrases or 30 second long loops at the most. Mostly females sound effects rather than typical lyrics that you'll find in a Taylor Swift song

Kind of like chanting at the beginning of the Enigma's "Principles of Lust" and then the "other" part with the female vocalist...
I assume the short vocals could be recorded and few lines assigned to pads individually and activated whenever needed.

Oh also in addition to Fantom 07, I ve also liked the Juno X. Still investigating though.

Casio also have some sort of interesting and very affordable model CT-S1000V maybe a ( Fantom 07 + Casio CT-1000V) could be a good setup. Who knows?

 

[Chris Laarman]

I am thinking mostly short phrases or 30 second long loops at the most. Mostly females sound effects rather than typical lyrics that you'll find in a Taylor Swift song

Kind of like chanting at the beginning of the Enigma's "Principles of Lust" and then the "other" part with the female vocalist...
I assume the short vocals could be recorded and few lines assigned to pads individually and activated whenever needed.

Oh also in addition to Fantom 07, I ve also liked the Juno X. Still investigating though.

Casio also have some sort of interesting and very affordable model CT-S1000V maybe a ( Fantom 07 + Casio CT-1000V) could be a good setup. Who knows?

Regarding the voices, not the hardware: you could have them sing words with the Virtual Singer add-on to Harmony Assistant (or...). Harmony Assistant also reads PSR and Band-in-a-Box styles.

I haven't tried Virtual Singer for some 15 years. Back then, it had trouble producing "s" and similar. But you could build your own voices. Don't expect Yamaha quality.

 

[hammarlund]

Sounds clear to me you want an arranger, IMO.

1) If you know your chord progression--which is often the first thing you figure out for a song--then you can easily and rapidly produce multiple sample songs, using the different "styles," all with the same chords.

Similarly, once you've decided on a style it is very easy to try different sounds.

2) Arranger boards are designed with more style options than a standard workstation. Unless you're very very dedicated, you won't "wear out" the styles of a high end arranger keyboard any time soon--if you ever do.

This seems important because of the big HURDLES to writing songs is fuss. The more fuss, the fewer songs. And it's exponential not linear; too much fuss and you won't write at all. An arranger is literally designed to do what you describe, with relatively little fuss.

3) Loops are great. But you have to find them online, name them for future use, store them so you'll be able to find them later, tie them together in a way that fits a song. The point of an arranger is that someone ELSE has done the finding, naming, , organizing, and tying together, so you can just hit "drum fill" and it will.... do a drum fill.

4) Making your own styles--which is to say "making your own loops"--is not easy. It requires good keyboard skills of course, and also you have to sequence, quantize, and so on. And then of course you have to have a good system for naming, saving, organizing, and reusing, or you'll waste a ton of time on things.

 

[Biggles]

Sounds clear to me you want an arranger, IMO.

1) If you know your chord progression--which is often the first thing you figure out for a song--then you can easily and rapidly produce multiple sample songs, using the different "styles," all with the same chords.

Similarly, once you've decided on a style it is very easy to try different sounds.

2) Arranger boards are designed with more style options than a standard workstation. Unless you're very very dedicated, you won't "wear out" the styles of a high end arranger keyboard any time soon--if you ever do.

This seems important because of the big HURDLES to writing songs is fuss. The more fuss, the fewer songs. And it's exponential not linear; too much fuss and you won't write at all. An arranger is literally designed to do what you describe, with relatively little fuss.

3) Loops are great. But you have to find them online, name them for future use, store them so you'll be able to find them later, tie them together in a way that fits a song. The point of an arranger is that someone ELSE has done the finding, naming, , organizing, and tying together, so you can just hit "drum fill" and it will.... do a drum fill.

4) Making your own styles--which is to say "making your own loops"--is not easy. It requires good keyboard skills of course, and also you have to sequence, quantize, and so on. And then of course you have to have a good system for naming, saving, organizing, and reusing, or you'll waste a ton of time on things.

+1
In response to above
1) you are halfway there with the available styles ready made for backing
2) styles are easily customised and changed
3) loops on a Korg Pa can be created and added to a Pad, so in the song it can play once as a riff or continuously once triggered
4) Kris N’s tutorial shows the way

plus

Just because its an Arranger does not mean you have to have the full Style play, you can have just the drums or drums and bass play so not beat loop or drum machine required as its inbuilt.

For a home hobbyist an Arranger is a very versatile keyboard and not requiring any other connection other than a pedal its less like a Rick Wakeman on tour setup in your home.

Good luck

 

[JimDavis]

+1
In response to above
1) you are halfway there with the available styles ready made for backing
2) styles are easily customised and changed
3) loops on a Korg Pa can be created and added to a Pad, so in the song it can play once as a riff or continuously once triggered
4) Kris N’s tutorial shows the way

plus

Just because its an Arranger does not mean you have to have the full Style play, you can have just the drums or drums and bass play so not beat loop or drum machine required as its inbuilt.

For a home hobbyist an Arranger is a very versatile keyboard and not requiring any other connection other than a pedal its less like a Rick Wakeman on tour setup in your home.

Good luck

I guess I need to take an in depth look again to arranger models like KorgPA and PSR-SX900/700, Nautilus like models and few others quite possibly.

 

[anotherscott]

I guess I need to take an in depth look again to arranger models like KorgPA and PSR-SX900/700, Nautilus like models and few others quite possibly.

Again, to make sure you are clear on the categories here.... the PSR models are arrangers, the Nautilus and Krome are workstations, and the Korg PA700/1000 etc. are arrangers but ones that also have linear sequencers in them that let them also behave more like workstations if and when desired. So if you want the flexibility of being able to work either way, I'd put that at the top of that list. Still, you need to research to be sure it will work in a way that makes sense for you, for what you want to do. Luckily, there are lots of youtube videos!

 

[JimDavis]

Looks like a 76 key PA5x is going to be coming home with me... Currently it is the one as #1 on the list! Pricey little bugger...

 

[Chris Laarman]

Looks like a 76 key PA5x is going to be coming home with me... Currently it is the one as #1 on the list! Pricey little bugger...

Yes... According to Google, my lowest price for that would be €4900, call for delivery time.

Coming to think of it, the Fantom-08, Hydrasynth Deluxe, Komplete Kontakt S61 and Thomann AK-X1100 that I have all bought this year may have cost me that amount together. (The Kontakt obviously is a mere controller.)

 

[JimDavis]

Yes... According to Google, my lowest price for that would be €4900, call for delivery time.

Coming to think of it, the Fantom-08, Hydrasynth Deluxe, Komplete Kontakt S61 and Thomann AK-X1100 that I have all bought this year may have cost me that amount together. (The Kontakt obviously is a mere controller.)

Yep, here in the USA 76 key model is $4900+tax but through some BS deal they are offering 5% credit back or something like that.

I was wondering besides well known brands & their models like Roland, Korg, Yamaha what else out there with as good as reputation and the options is out there that I am not aware of.... Like Kurzweil or Akai etc?

Other than its tiny screen I really liked the sounds and options offered on JunoX.

That is my main dilemma... I can't decide really should I get 2 instruments like Fantom 06 and JunoX both for a total of $3600 or cough up $4900 for just a single instrument like PA5X...?

 

[anotherscott]

That is my main dilemma... I can't decide really should I get 2 instruments like Fantom 06 and JunoX both for a total of $3600 or cough up $4900 for just a single instrument like PA5X...?

You're still talking about two entirely different environments, though. Sonic differences aside, but just in terms of basic functionality...

... The Fantom-06+JunoX combined still won't do what the PA5X will do (e.g. as an arranger, or in having a workstation-style 16-track linear editable sequencer... though from what I saw in the manual, unless I missed something, it doesn't seem to have the punch-in punch-out facilities of most such sequencers, which is surprising especially since the PA1000 has it, as did the PA4x)

... the PA5X does not do all those other boards do (e.g. the Fantom's loop-assembly sequencing approach, or the direct knobby synth control of the JunoX)

So it's not just a matter of total budget, or one board vs. two, but also I think what's most important to you in terms of the workflow.

 

[Biggles]

In your latest scenario I would advise buying a Korg Pa1000 & a Roland 07.

Feed the outputs of the Roland into the input of the Korg and use the Korg’s onboard amp and speakers plus you would be able to record the Roland on the Korg.

Also join the Roland Facebook page for the 0 series, Ed Diaz whose videos you may have watched is there and you can ask a question there of actual users and hopefully even of Ed.