Hello! Just getting started... again...

[evergreenthompson]

Hello, everyone!

Once upon a time I took piano lessons for a couple years. Sometime later I played the cornet for a few years. Frankly, much as I wanted to learn how to play, music lessons and band bored me to tears, and I never really did learn how to play an instrument very well. Still, if I know a tune well enough in my head, I can pick through it (sheet music helps), and eventually play it "reasonably well."

Over the years I've thought about getting a keyboard, hooking it up to my computer, and seeing if I can learn to play them both well enough to reproduce the music in my head "reasonably well."

The last few days I've been comparing music/audio software such as ACID Music Studio, Cakewalk Music Creator, Audacity, etc, and scoping out keyboards, etc.

Right now I'm leaning toward ACID Music Studio (appears to have a good mix of features, supported file formats, third-party support) and a Yamaha keyboard (seems to be the most widely sold brand in the local shops). But I have to admit I have no idea how well the software and hardware will cooperate with each other, so I plan on bringing my laptop to the stores.

Whatever the keyboard, I'm thinking about making sure it has weighted keys in the event that DD starts taking piano lessons in the not too distant future. I figure it's probably best if her fingers know the general feel of a piano, even if practices on a keyboard.

(Any suggestions on software and keyboards? Hint, hint... )

Looking forward to learning a lot here, and hopefully returning the favor along the way.

 

[kanthos]

What tasks do you want to accomplish with both the computer and the keyboard? Do you want software that records audio? Records MIDI and plays it back through software instruments? Has all kinds of pre-programmed loops and such for you to drop into a piece and add the rest on your keyboard?

What features do you want out of the keyboard? Just a simple keyboard that's good enough for you to play parts into your computer? Something that you'd also use for live performance?

I wouldn't worry about compatibility; as long as you have a way to get MIDI or audio data into your computer, your laptop will be fine. You have a few choices: some keyboards send MIDI data via USB, and virtually all have MIDI OUT (meaning you need a MIDI interface of some sort; your laptop won't have one, so you'll need to spend a bit more to get one that connects via USB or Firewire).

For recording audio and for playing back MIDI from your keyboard with a software instrument without too much latency (delay from when you hit a key to when the sound is produce), you'll want a better audio interface than your computer's on-board sound card. Many audio interfaces also have MIDI interfaces as well.

Explain a bit more what exactly you want and don't want, and we can help point you in the right direction.

 

[evergreenthompson]

Thanks for the quick response, kanthos!

OK, let's see if I can narrow down the feature list a bit...

Software

• Imports common audio file formats (loops or "generic" audio, MP3, etc.)
• Records audio
• Records MIDI
• Edits MIDI
• Plays composition on computer
• Plays composition on instrument(s) (MIDI, yes; audio, too?)
• Mixes audio/MIDI
• Renders and exports composition to common audio file formats (MP3, etc.)
• Good availability of quality loops in wide range of musical styles (Mfr, 3rd-party, free)--nice to have sounds effects too (covered under percussion?)

Keyboard

• MIDI in/out--if via built-in USB connection, works for me
• Headphone jack--i assume that's pretty standard
• Keys: full-size, touch response, at least 61
• Weighted keys may be more of a nice to have--Would it necessary for a student (elementary school age) taking piano lessons?
• Good sound quality, especially piano (the lessons thing)
• Built-in instrument sounds
• Pitch-bender would be nice
• Basic stand-alone (w/out computer) mixing (play along with built-in beat/accomp is probably just fine)
• Price: "modest" is good. I can upgrade later. (Still debating features vs. cost for our first keyboard, and trying to keep options as open as possible.)

I don't necessarily to be able to perform live with my laptop (though a number of well-known artists do). But, I would like to be able to replicate a fairly broad range of music.

 

[kanthos]

You're not likely going to be able to play your composition on your instrument. And honestly, you wouldn't want to. If you've used loops or other audio on your computer, it won't be played back on a keyboard; all you could do is send the MIDI data. And depending on how good your keyboard is, it might not be able to handle all the notes anyway (for a keyboard, look at its polyphony: how many notes it plays at once, and multitimbral: how many different parts it plays at once). There are some keyboards that can easily play an audio file, and there are some that can sample an audio file (convert from MP3/WAV/whatever into their own format and store the converted audio in internal memory, so that you can play it back from the keyboard).

Probably though, you'd want to play your compositions from the computer. It'll be easier and better quality.


As for software, you've got a number of choices, and it really comes down to finding a workflow that feels natural. The type of software you want is called a DAW (digital audio workstation). Possibilities are Acid Pro, Ableton Live, FL Studio, Reason, Cubase, Sonar, Garageband (Mac only), and I'm sure I'm missing others. Most of those have demo versions (unfortunately, Cubase, my personal choice, does not); I'd suggest trying them out a bit as well as reading up on the features of each. The convention is that you don't usually have access to a lot of loops (if any) and high-quality virtual instruments. DAWs are basically a starting point; you generally will want to get some virtual instruments, record your keyboard, get 3rd-party loops, and so on. Also, some DAWs have multiple versions that either add more features or have more audio content or plugins bundled. Check out your options here; you may not need or want the full version of Cubase, for example, when Cubase Studio will meet your needs.

You'll run into a couple issues with getting instruments or loops for your DAW. One is the instrument format. There are a few types (VST, DXI, AU on Mac), so your mileage will vary. If you think that buying a lot of software instruments is something you'll want to do, I'd suggest getting a DAW with VST support; VST is kind of the standard. For ideas of what's out there, check out kvraudio.com (which is a pretty comprehensive listing of both free and commercial plugins); my favourite plugins that I've used are all by Native Instruments.

The other issue with loops is what format the loops are in and how they're played. I've never worked with them, so your mileage may vary. You may be able to drop them right into your DAW, or you may need a software instrument to manage them for you. Samplers like Native Instruments' Kontakt tend to be great at handling all kinds of formats and giving you all kinds of options. For that matter, if you only buy one virtual instrument, Kontakt is my recommendation (besides working as a sampler, it has a massive library of content of all kinds).



Keyboards... As long as you have a MIDI interface on your computer, you should be fine. Only the cheapest keyboards don't have MIDI in/out and a headphone jack (although, the headphone jack may be 1/4" instead of 1/8", but you can always get a 1/4" male to 1/8" female adapter that screws onto the 1/8" male part of your headphones; these should cost $5 at Radio Shack).

You're probably looking at something mid-range. If your kids are taking piano lessons, don't even consider anything that's not 88 keys and weighted. Keyboards are a compromise enough over a real piano (I personally haven't tried anything that compares to a real piano, although some keyboards like the weighted versions of the Nord Stage or the Korg M3 might come close). The Nord Stage might not be what you'd want though; besides the cost, it's got great organ and piano/electric piano sounds and a basic synthesizer module, but nothing else (no strings, brass, or other sampled instruments of any kind).

Others can probably recommend a keyboard better than I can; I'm only really familiar with Roland and Korg keyboards and can't comment intelligently on Yamahas. Roland is probably out of your price range: you'd have to get up to the Fantom X8 to find one with weighted keys (their more affordable Juno line doesn't have any 88-key weighted models). Korg tends to be better in that regard (their 88-key TR model is much more affordable; for better sounds, the 88-key M50 or 88-key M3 would be better). If you can compromise on a keyboard being 88-keys and weighted, you might want to consider the Juno series as well. Everything I've suggested should meet all your requirements, so what you'd really want to consider are polyphony, number of multitimbral parts, cost, and sound quality.

And definitely consider Yamahas as well; I just don't know anything about them so I won't say anything there. The general concensus here seems to be that Yamahas have better acoustic instrument sounds (piano included) than equivalent-model Korgs and Rolands.

Personally, I like the Korg line (I'm looking to buy one myself; just waiting for some other gear I have to sell), although my other keyboard is a Nord Stage 73, so I've got great piano sound and don't need to consider that in a Korg (people here tend to think that before the M50 and M3, Korg's piano sounds weren't that good). Personally, I've found Roland keyboards a bit less logically organized and haven't liked their brass or string sounds at all, while I've found Korg to be much better.

Ultimately though, you should take the suggestions you get here and head to a music store and try them out. Keyboards are very much a matter of preference, and you know your own needs best, so don't take anyone else's opinion as fact.

Hope this helps; if I've confused you or you've got more specific questions, please ask.

 

[evergreenthompson]

Thanks for the great feedback! You've answered many questions, and prompted more (most of which will be have to be answered in the stores).

I'm still debating how close to real piano feel we'll need, considering the pianos both DW and I learned on when we were growing up were, shall we say, less than optimal. However, old pianos have certain positive intangible qualities a modern piano will never have (cue fade to memory sequence...), and you can learn to play even if the instrument is a bit out of tune.

Sometime yesterday afternoon I started realizing that playing all of a fully-mixed piece on the instrument probably isn't too realistic. But that's fine, as long as I can get everything into the computer for mixing, playback, and rendering, and later play along live. Of course, I want/need the keyboard to have a good tactile feel and great sound.

The info on instrument formats (VST, etc.) is very helpful. Until now I've really only had a vague feeling that VST-support was a must-have to watch for. I'm definitely going to have fun with kvraudio.com.

Your list keyboards gives me more to compare against... Can I leave work early and go window shopping now?

 

[kanthos]

Yeah, you can learn to play if the instrument's out of tune (although that's obviously not ideal). Beginners don't need 88 keys, but my thought is that spending a bit more now will be cheaper than buying a new keyboard 5 years from now, since unlike software, you can't get an "upgrade price" for previously owning another keyboard by a manufacturer.

A good weighted feel is essential for a piano student. Sure, you *can* learn on a synth-action keyboard, but you're going to be very out of place playing a real piano. If your kids have any intention of ever taking piano exams or playing in festivals or recitals (which are good performing experience; they don't have to play to compete), they will most likely perform horribly if they're not used to a real piano. Even transitioning from an upright at home to a grand at the exam centre can be a stretch just because the pressure is different (I always used to practice my recital/exam pieces on my church's grand before my exam). Synth-action or semi-weighted adds even more of a disadvantage here. It's always easier to adjust to playing an instrument with a lighter touch than one with a heavier touch.

 

[evergreenthompson]

It's been an interesting couple of days. It doesn't sound like DD is the most interested in learning to play anything, but I'm going to keep asking to make sure she isn't saying "no" just to be difficult. But I don't want her to feel forced into it either.

I stopped at the local music shop the other night. It was fun chatting with the store manager and getting my hands on assorted keyboards and pianos. Unfortunately they don't have much to choose from.

On the way home from them, I stopped at a used instrument store. Nothing but a non-velocity-aware cheap keyboard. The manager there told me it's rare for any keyboard brought into their store to stay very long, and most go back out the door within hours.

Later that night I discovered there's a Guitar Center relatively close to me. From what I can tell online they may have a good selection of keyboards in the store. I sure wish I could spend a day there! Too bad none of the keyboards I'm leaning toward are part of their Thanksgiving weekend sale.

Meanwhile, I've loosened up on the piano-feel requirement, as that seems to put a damper on my available options for other features I'm considering. If/when the day comes that DD wants to learn piano, then we'll go hunting for a keyboard specifically as a piano substitute. I am finding that may actually be the much less expensive route to take.

Happy Thanksgiving to everyone who celebrates it!

 

[evergreenthompson]

I visited my nearest Guitar Center last night. Oh, the eye-/ear-/finger-candy to behold!

I have to say that Korg M50-88 has really caught my attention, though I wish it were closer to the M50-61's price. The Korg M3's and the Yamaha's were nice too, but I found myself glued to the M50's.

The Roland's didn't really seem to do much for me, mostly because of the prices. Oh, not that they weren't very cool instruments. I just had a heck of a time intuitively knowing where to begin. I never did figure out how to activate the "standard" grand piano voice on them. But that rotating 3-D audio wave screensaver was definitely an eye-grabber!

There was quite the assortment of other brands as well... Casio, M-Audio, Nord, and a few others. But it was Korg and Yamaha that seemed to tug at me the most. I've got plenty of user manuals to download and study before settling on a particular brand/model.

My experience at the store did solidify that I truly do want a full 88 keys, most likely weighted.

But I do have one question... What is with all the silver-tone and white? Black looks so much cooler and less toy-like!

 

[kanthos]

I wish I knew what was up with the colors. The M50 looks much better, although the M3 feels much better and has more useful features (and features in general).

Good that you passed on M-Audio and Nord. M-Audio is great for their controllers and not as good for their stage pianos, and Nord is a bit of a mixed bag: fabulous if you want a great stage piano, realistic organ sounds, or a good synth, but not great for getting a variety of sounds.

 

[evergreenthompson]

The M3's definitely have more goodies [drool!], and I had to keep reminding myself which keyboard was actually featured in each of the demo videos.