Adding pedals instead of a bass player...

[BrianT]

Hopefully this isn't such a tired question that I torque anyone off... I could use some input.

I'm playing keyboard in a band again, after a lots of years away. I did church work for many years but most of that was solo. Jazz band / 30's, 40's, & 50's sounds now. Was guitar, sax, and drums... and backup tracks. They picked up a vocalist and the guitar dropped out. So now it's keyboard (me), sax, drums, and the vocalist. That puts me in the hot seat as there are no more background tracks. I can do a lot with the keyboard but it's challenging getting a full sound ALL of the time. It seems that a bass player is not forthcoming.

Anyway, the guys in the band were asking me about whether I thought I could manage a pedal board to play "bass" on that. And I honestly think I could as I did play an organ for quite a few years. (Church work, New Orleans, kind of a cool thing going for a few years. Another world, and another story.) But the point is, I think I could add something that way if the equipment were there. I know there are things like the Studiologic MP-117 MIDI Controller Pedal Board, which looks pretty sweet. But that's only a controller and it doesn't actually make sounds onboard.

I have well used Fantom X8 which I love dearly but I'm just too old to be humpin' that thing around anymore, just don't wanna. So of late, I've been using a Casio PX-560M. It's light weight, light enough that I really can hump it around and not feel like I'm gonna pop out a hernia every time I move it. It's not exactly loaded with high end sounds but I have a piano loaded on it that I like very well and there are a couple of string sounds that are barely acceptable. I do use the piano and strings together. It does give the ability to split the keyboard but I'm not crazy about losing an octave or octave and a half on either end of the 88, I actually use them. But that said, there is not a decent upright bass sound on that keyboard, they're pretty lame. Not sure whether I could load a better sound on there or not.

I am totally uneducated about MIDI, though, and have no real concept of how something like that could be set up. Or whether trying to use a pedal controller through MIDI would lessen the quality of the sounds I'm already playing on 560M or cause me to lose keys I use. I could also see a possibility of adding a second keyboard for adding additional sounds that aren't so great on the 560M but that does add complexity as well as more weight to hump around. Short of another keyboard, though, I wasn't sure if I would need some kind of sound module for the bass sounds. I don't necessarily need a lot of sounds but I need a good upright bass sound. (A nice B3 sound would tweak my interest, the 560M doesn't have a decent organ sound, either. Seldom would it be used, but, if i had it...)

I can see the potential for this kind of setup getting crazy and big, not to mention expensive. But at the end of the day, I only have 10 fingers and maybe can add a foot. I'm also getting asked if I'm a "senior citizen" often enough that well, weight matters. Yeah, just because I - can - still lift it doesn't mean I wanna.

So all that said, if any of you all would like to suggest some possibilities you think might work well, I'm listening!


Thanks!!

 

[happyrat1]

Maybe something like the Roland TB-3 Bass Synth?

Gary

 

[BrianT]

Found a YouTube video that goes through every preset voice on the TB3. Sounds like a whole lot of techno/acid kind of stuff but if it had just a plain ol' string bass, I missed it. (?) I like the idea.

 

[happyrat1]

The initial couple of patches sound pretty natural.

Listen to the above video around 3:00

 

[BrianT]

You did find about the most natural sounding ones that I heard. Not quite what I was looking for but probably customizable.

Thanks

 

[Chris Laarman]

Hopefully this isn't such a tired question that I torque anyone off... I could use some input.

I'm playing keyboard in a band again, after a lots of years away. I did church work for many years but most of that was solo. Jazz band / 30's, 40's, & 50's sounds now. Was guitar, sax, and drums... and backup tracks. They picked up a vocalist and the guitar dropped out. So now it's keyboard (me), sax, drums, and the vocalist. That puts me in the hot seat as there are no more background tracks. I can do a lot with the keyboard but it's challenging getting a full sound ALL of the time. It seems that a bass player is not forthcoming.

Anyway, the guys in the band were asking me about whether I thought I could manage a pedal board to play "bass" on that. And I honestly think I could as I did play an organ for quite a few years. (Church work, New Orleans, kind of a cool thing going for a few years. Another world, and another story.) But the point is, I think I could add something that way if the equipment were there. I know there are things like the Studiologic MP-117 MIDI Controller Pedal Board, which looks pretty sweet. But that's only a controller and it doesn't actually make sounds onboard.

I have well used Fantom X8 which I love dearly but I'm just too old to be humpin' that thing around anymore, just don't wanna. So of late, I've been using a Casio PX-560M. It's light weight, light enough that I really can hump it around and not feel like I'm gonna pop out a hernia every time I move it. It's not exactly loaded with high end sounds but I have a piano loaded on it that I like very well and there are a couple of string sounds that are barely acceptable. I do use the piano and strings together. It does give the ability to split the keyboard but I'm not crazy about losing an octave or octave and a half on either end of the 88, I actually use them. But that said, there is not a decent upright bass sound on that keyboard, they're pretty lame. Not sure whether I could load a better sound on there or not.

I am totally uneducated about MIDI, though, and have no real concept of how something like that could be set up. Or whether trying to use a pedal controller through MIDI would lessen the quality of the sounds I'm already playing on 560M or cause me to lose keys I use. I could also see a possibility of adding a second keyboard for adding additional sounds that aren't so great on the 560M but that does add complexity as well as more weight to hump around. Short of another keyboard, though, I wasn't sure if I would need some kind of sound module for the bass sounds. I don't necessarily need a lot of sounds but I need a good upright bass sound. (A nice B3 sound would tweak my interest, the 560M doesn't have a decent organ sound, either. Seldom would it be used, but, if i had it...)

I can see the potential for this kind of setup getting crazy and big, not to mention expensive. But at the end of the day, I only have 10 fingers and maybe can add a foot. I'm also getting asked if I'm a "senior citizen" often enough that well, weight matters. Yeah, just because I - can - still lift it doesn't mean I wanna.

So all that said, if any of you all would like to suggest some possibilities you think might work well, I'm listening!


Thanks!!

Your keyboard seems to be an "arranger keyboard" with styles built-in. I suggest that you spend some (more) time tweaking or mastering styles, rather than spend money on something bulky (and then time to master pressing your feet at certain attacks: the MP-117 allows "velocity" settings of 0..127, as opposed to "on|off" of a pipe organ (assuming that was your church organ)).

Note: I didn't check if the styles of the Casio PX-650M are limited to drums or are richer (and contain bass parts at least). If it should be mere drums, consider buying an arranger keyboard with richer styles. - And prepare to have us leapfrog in suggesting ones. ;-)

 

[BrianT]

I'm not sure I quite understand what "styles" you mean. Are you thinking of the kinds of features that "play the bass for you"? If that's what you're thinking, we're way past that. I may be missing something and that's not what you're referring to. (?)

 

[Chris Laarman]

I'm not sure I quite understand what "styles" you mean. Are you thinking of the kinds of features that "play the bass for you"? If that's what you're thinking, we're way past that. I may be missing something and that's not what you're referring to. (?)

Assuming you're replying to my message:

Yes, I meant styles like in PSR-keyboards (by Yamaha) and apparently in your Casio. If you are "way past" that, then great, musically.

 

[BrianT]

Assuming you're replying to my message:

Yes, I meant styles like in PSR-keyboards (by Yamaha) and apparently in your Casio. If you are "way past" that, then great, musically.

I hope my reply didn't come off too "cocky", didn't mean it to be that way. I can play pretty well, not quite Dave Brubeck or Bill Evans but I do play one or two numbers that they did in very similar style. Now if I could play like Oscar Peterson, I wouldn't even have to ask the question. LOL!!

If we really wanted to just play with tracks, it wouldn't be an issue. But... the drummer had told me that he really did not enjoy that at all and I suspect I'd get pretty bored quickly as well. Having some room for improv, adding an extra verse or bridge or changing the tempo like we feel it, all of that stuff is thrown out the window with tracks. So we're pushing for 100% live performance. And it's fun that way.

We'll figure it out, or not. It'll be good even if we just stick with exactly what we have. Having the previous experience with an organ, though, I'd bet I could make a pedal setup work really well with some seat time. I didn't play a pipe organ in N.O., but it was an older Allen electronic that I could get some good sounds out of. And the style of that, even though it was "church" music, was just a tiny bit less than full on "roller skating" music. It was fun!

 

[happyrat1]

Have you checked the local mental hospitals?

Most bass players I have known were mental cases to begin with

Gary

 

[Chris Laarman]

I hope my reply didn't come off too "cocky", didn't mean it to be that way. I can play pretty well, not quite Dave Brubeck or Bill Evans but I do play one or two numbers that they did in very similar style. Now if I could play like Oscar Peterson, I wouldn't even have to ask the question. LOL!!

If we really wanted to just play with tracks, it wouldn't be an issue. But... the drummer had told me that he really did not enjoy that at all and I suspect I'd get pretty bored quickly as well. Having some room for improv, adding an extra verse or bridge or changing the tempo like we feel it, all of that stuff is thrown out the window with tracks. So we're pushing for 100% live performance. And it's fun that way.

We'll figure it out, or not. It'll be good even if we just stick with exactly what we have. Having the previous experience with an organ, though, I'd bet I could make a pedal setup work really well with some seat time. I didn't play a pipe organ in N.O., but it was an older Allen electronic that I could get some good sounds out of. And the style of that, even though it was "church" music, was just a tiny bit less than full on "roller skating" music. It was fun!

Thanks for your clarifications! However, you seem to equal "styles" and "tracks". A style is a way to (dynamically) fill tracks. ('Tracks" in the "mixer" sense.) - For the "how to", consult the manual. - Me, I'm not a "real" keyboard player. I'm glad that a bought an arranger keyboard the other week. However, I've been using Band-in-a-Box (BiaB) since 1995 to accompany me on guitar or wind controller. - To my knowledge, the Sophisticats use BiaB as accompaniment at their gigs, although they (used to) stick with audio files rendered with BiaB in order to be exempt from computer crashes. - I remember myself and a friend jamming to BiaB: deciding on a certain number of iterations, then improvising - but, again, that's limiting oneself to a track (in the "backing track") rather than a style...

I suggest that you do look into the "style" capabilities of your Casio, just for comparison with other options. It's none of my business.

 

[happyrat1]

I seriously think a Bass Sequencer might be your solution. There's a bit of a learning curve but you can create some pretty wild basslines with one.

Gary

 

[hammarlund]

You can play bass w feet. You have MIDI in, and the pedal won't be all that hard to set up. However, you would first want to check and see if your keyboard will play two sounds simultaneously (one on the main keyboard and the other over MIDI.)

IMO it realistically would only be workable if you did not consider velocity--so some sort of synth bass. That said, you may get better results if you split the keyboard and play a decent bass patch w/ left hand, and piano (or organ, which has the benefits of sustain) w/ right hand. Even so there's no real substitute for having a guitar; as you clearly know you're an instrument short and it is what it is.

 

[BrianT]

I've been doing a little learning about my particular keyboard. It's not really set up to work with a pedal type midi controller. It could potentially work with the pedal controlling a part of the keyboard that's split off on the bottom but I wouldn't particularly like losing that section of the keyboard.

It is really appearing that the most practical way of making it happen is probably the midi controller pedals controlling a stand alone bass synth or sound module. That's possible, but more money than I wanna spend right now and also more equipment to haul around. (Just those pedal controllers can go for $500 to $800, and that doesn't include the sound module. The same bass pedals could potentially control a different keyboard, one set up to work with that type of setup, and that could add some interesting capability. But again, another keyboard, besides the pedals, and now we're probably pushing $2k till it's ready to sit down and play.

I'm thinking I'm just gonna do the best I can with what I already have, which means, no pedals, no bass player, and no guitar player.

The band leader did mention that the more people we add the more ways we have to split the take. He has a point. It barely makes gas money now... which is another reason I don't wanna drop much coin.

Anyway, thanks for the thoughts. If more gigs are forthcoming, I'll look more seriously. If not, I'll hang tight with what I already have. Time will tell.

 

[Biggles]

Have you checked the local mental hospitals?

Most bass players I have known were mental cases to begin with

Gary

True

 

[Biggles]

With the Casio having Arranger features (its not a true dedicated Arranger with hundreds of Styles for auto accompaniment), you could try using the Auto Accompaniment of a Style and play a limited Bass line with your left hand.

In a full Arranger the three+ fingered chord with the left hand triggers the change in the AA, there may not be a need to hold the chord hence once triggered move on to the Bass line.

My local store pre Covid had a Korg Pa 700 hooked up with Bass pedals for punters with more skill than I to but I have seen it used by one of the top Pros and very effective it was.

 

[BrianT]

As far as using what's already onboard the keyboard, I haven't found any of the styles setups to work well for me. About the best I've been able to do is to split the keyboard and let the bass fall into the bottom couple of octaves. And it kinda works sometimes. I can't really afford to give up the whole left hand to just play the bass so it's a little tricky getting the split point set right. The best tends to come out more like a "stride piano" type playing.

Anyway, not sure much more than that is gonna happen without way more stuff than I wanna deal with now. At least I'm learning more about the 560M.

Thanks