How much of a "synthesizer" is the CTK - 7000 ? It is 100%?

[Bill Carson]

Hi, I need help. I just ordered a CTK-7000 for my 8 &10 y/o boy's who wanted a portable real synthesizer with speakers, but I maybe I should return it and get a XP-P1 without speakers instead.

The 10 y/o (who this is mostly for) has a little experience playing with synth parameters on FL Studio, and he is probably looking for sounds along the lines of dubstep's distorted wobble bass. Its the CTK-7000 capable of that?

Can the tone editor apply all the available DSP filters to a wave or is it limited to just one DSP effect per tone (i.e., either distortion or an LFO applied to a tone, but not both)? A Casio products rep said the DSP filters couldn't be "layered" when I asked him that, but he didn't seem too sure and it looks like it's being done in this youtube video. If all DSP effects can be applied to a tone, I don't know why Keyboard Mag wrote that "It ain’t full synthesis..."

Also, can the custom drawbar organs include the replacement of their Hammond type tones with user defined tones (or at least multiple DSP effects applied to each of the Hammond tones) so that the sound can be blended with sliders real-time like in this XP-P1 demo ? Thxs for reading! /bill

 

[happyrat1]

I have no experience with the CTK-7000 but I do own an XW-P1.

8 and 10 yrs old is a bit young but if the boys are serious about learning on a virtual analog synth, the XW is about as close as you can come to a real MOOG for the money.

Also the XW is aimed more at the pro and semi pro market with proper line outs instead of built in speakers so if your boys are good at taking care of their possessions it will serve them well in a few years if they join up with a band.

If they are really driven to learn how to create their own patches and experiment with MIDI sequencers, they will not tire of the XW for years to come. It's really so deep and subtle to program that it will honestly take them years to master.

Plus as a bonus you also have the Hex Layers, the Drawbar Organs and the Bread and Butter PCM patches for playing more traditional stuff.

I'd really have to say that you can't go wrong buying one of these boards. It blows anything else in its price range totally out of the water.

Gary

 

[Ted Nicoson]

Bill

For what you are trying to do, I tend to agree with happyrat1 on the XW-P1. The CTK and WK lines are really not synthesizers at all. They are "Arranger Workstations" with ROMpler (ROM player) sound engines that play back samples (sound snippets) of real instruments that have been permanently recorded into ROM memory chips at the factory. They also include an auto-accompaniment section for one-man-band type of entertainment. While they do include some basic sound editing capabilities, it is very limited, at best. This is opposed to true synthesizers which use basic wave forms (sine, saw tooth, square, white noise, etc) to build up complex finished sounds. While many synths also include some ROM samples of real instruments, their forte is extensive manipulation of those basic wave forms. If your 10 year old is into DJ/Club/Dance type music, then you might also want to take a look at the loop/groove capabilities of the XW-G1. The units are similar, but the XW-P1 is aimed primarily at the synth/keyboard type of player, while the XW-G1 is geared toward the DJ.

Good luck !

 

[happyrat1]

Should you be seriously considering picking up an XW-P1 then I'd suggest caveat emptor and spend some serious time cramming on what the keyboard is about before you take the plunge.

Here are five links where you will find 90% of the available information on the XW line of synths and a lot of serious talk about its abilities and limitations.

Some of it is insanely long and complicated, but at the very least, skim it over before you make a decision to buy or not.

Official XW Blog

http://xwsynth.wordpress.com/

Harmony Central Pro Review. A 30 page exhaustive review and analysis thread dealing with the XW.

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php?2900825-Casio-XW-P1-Performance-Synthesizer

Semi Official New Forum Devoted to Casio Workstations and Synths.

http://www.casiomusicforums.com/

And lastly, the actual documentation for the XW Synths from Casio itself.

http://support.casio.com/manualfile.php?rgn=1&cid=008013001

http://support.casio.com/manualfile.php?rgn=1&cid=008013003

Study the threads and look over the PDFs and decide for yourself if this is the right keyboard for your kids or not.

Regards,
Gary

 

[Bill Carson]

Thanks Gary and Ted!
After skimming the CTX-Manual online, this is my best amateur understanding of its synthesizer capabilities. Although the CTX's controls are not optimized for synthesis on the fly, it appears to have all basic synthesized tone creation abilities except one: basing a new tone off a simple wave form. New tones are created from preset tones, which Ted Nelson points out are sampled. Those tones are then shaped by 13 tone parameters and 14 DSP effects:

Tone Parameters: Attack Time, Release Time, CutOff Frequency, Vibrato Type (wave form) , Vib.Depth, Vibrato Rate, Vibrato Delay, Octave Shift, Volume, Touch Sense, Reverb Send, Chorus, Send, DSP

DSP Effect Parameters: Wah, Compressor, Distortion, Enhancer, AutoPan, Tremolo, Phaser, Flanger, Chorus, Delay, Reflection, Rotary, RingModulator, Lo-Fi (The advertised 100 DSP presets and 100 user defined DSP effects are really just editable combinations of the above 14.)

If I'm reading this correctly, up to eight DSP effects can be applied to a new tone. The manual also implies that each of the eight tones in drawbar organs can be user defined. That makes sense because 8 * 8 = the CTX-7000's 64 note polyphony.

I imagine that playing with the harmonics of 8 synthesized tones through sliders would be a blast, but limited by each of the sliders having only 4 adjustment levels and the difficulty of tweaking other tone parameters on the fly.
All things considered, the XW-P1 looked like it might make more sense for our boys so we gave up the Christmas surprise last night in order to let them decide. I walking them through a dozen videos and explained as much as I knew on the tradeoffs. Ben (8 y/o) gravitated to the CTX. But Rush (10y/o, who this present is mostly for) then suggested videos promoting the XW-G1 rather than the P1. Unknown to us, he had the XW-G1 bookmarked and had been saving for it. From break-dancing, he has been exposed to DJs, music mixing and production, something that he wants to do when older. He pointed out that his birthday copy of FL Studio makes up for loosing CTX's mixing abilities. He's not so interested in the drawbar organs so the greater synth control of the G1 more or less just costs him the P1's Hex Layers. Ted, I think you're spot on; the G1 is optimized for exactly what they want!

I'm still reviewing the links that Gary listed, but we already told Rush that if he contributed half of the $200 that he has saved in order to make up for some of the price difference, we would probably buy the G1. (We needed to see how much really he wanted it when it costs him something.) He jumped on that and tried to pay us before immediately! So unless something sticks out in Gary's links, they're getting the G1.

Thanks again Gary & Ted!

 

[happyrat1]

G1 or P1, they're both great machines. I'm sure your boys won't be disappointed this xmas. Glad you made a decision. Merry xmas to you and yours...

Gary

 

[Bill Carson]

Thanks Gary, I think they're all excellent machines. My last experience with any of this was in 25 years ago laying down a few tracks from an outdated at the time MOOG and Korg synth on an even older 8 track mixer. That was part of an electronic music class and a physics of music class in Santa Barbara City College. A "little bit" has changed since then...

Merry xmas to you as well!
/bill

 

[happyrat1]

I hope your boys are appreciative of what you're planning to get them.

40 years ago I would have killed to lay my hands on even the cheapest synth available from Casio today. Kids today are unbelievably lucky...

Gary

 

[Bill Carson]

@ Gary "40 years ago I would have killed to lay my hands on even the cheapest synth available from Casio today."

That's what I told Rush regarding FL Studio. Technology has multiplied their artistic opportunities.

The boys really are appreciative of this synth or they're really good at faking...
/bill

 

[happyrat1]

BTW, just to add a little more crazy to your life. The M-Audio Venom is being sold at $199 on Amazon.com

http://www.amazon.com/M-Audio-Venom...&sr=8-1&keywords=M-Audio+Venom+49+Synthesizer

Caveat. It's been discontinued by M-Audio but may very well become a collector's item someday.

Here's the review writeup on it.

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php?2736428-M-Audio-Venom-Synthesizer

Personally I think the Casio is the better keyboard and better supported, but I'd pick one up in a heartbeat at that price just for the hell of it if those rotten b*******s at Amazon would ship one to Canada.

Gary

 

[Bill Carson]

Thanks, The Venom looks like fun. I'd have gone with it last week, but the trigger's been pulled on the G1 with 15% off at Musician's Friend. The 15% discount was just enough to cover the cost of their 3 year unconditional warranty, needed on a $510 piece of equipment in the hands of two boys.

Sweetwater's selling the Venom for $199 too.

Last night I dreamed of synthisizers... research must stop
/bill

 

[happyrat1]

Here's a different item for ya to dream over...

The Misa Kitara...

http://www.misadigital.com/

I'd LOVE to get my hands on one of these too

 

[Bill Carson]

Hmm... It looks like just another thing for Dad to provide tech support.

 

[happyrat1]

One keyboard? Two young boys? I don't foresee any sharing problems? Do you? Hehehehehehe

The Misa Kitara may be just the thing to keep them from killing each other to get at the G1

 

[Ted Nicoson]

Hi Bill !

Sorry, I was away for a couple of days. I was going to suggest that your first order of business might be to sit the boys down and get them to define, as best they can, what they mean by a synth. To a lot of people, anything in a long black or gray plastic box with black and white keys is a synth. Anyway, it looks like you have progressed way beyond that, so I will just say best of luck and wish you and yours a wonderful holiday season. I hope the boys really enjoy the present.