midi controller help

[randoker]

Hi folks, A moment of your time would be appreciated.

Due to having a pregnant wife and having to move in the very near future, I just sold my dearly loved 50" Kawai studio upright piano. Loved that piano, but it weighs a ton and I need the money.

I am completely new to the keyboard world, but have been reading furiously for the last couple of days to understand the options.

My number one priority is to have a realistic graded and weighted keyboard action. I won't be recording or gigging or anything like that. Just tooling around at home and pretending to be Elton John but without the ridiculous body suit and glasses.

My second priority is that it sound awesome.

I don't care about any buttons/knobs/sliders or sequencers/recorders, any of that stuff.

At first I thought I wanted a digital piano, but everything I have read in general indicates disappointment with the built in speakers, especially if you are accustomed to playing a real piano, so I would probably want to use a couple of studio monitors or amps or something to get a big loud stereo sound space.

Then I found out about these things called virtual pianos, where you can be playing a sampled steinway grand or alicia keys yamaha c3

So what I'm wondering is,

Is there a plain old 88 key midi controller with graded weighted hammer action that I can run into my laptop running one of those virtual pianos, and then out to a couple of decent studio monitors or amps?

All for under $1,000 USD?

Is there anyone else out there doing something like this?

Thanks in advance!

 

[The Y_man]

Something like this? http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Oxygen88/

You'll need a decent laptop - you can down load some demo versions of Native's instruments - but I found my poor laptop's processor couldn't cope .....

The Y-man

 

[randoker]

Thanks for the link. I guess I really need to get off the couch and try some of these out.
Do I need something special to get the sound from my laptop to the amp? Or just plug into the headphone jack?

 

[The Y_man]

Thanks for the link. I guess I really need to get off the couch and try some of these out.
Do I need something special to get the sound from my laptop to the amp? Or just plug into the headphone jack?

Try the plugging into the headphone socket method first. Also use a low latency driver like ASIO4ALL. If you notice a delay between hitting the keys and sound comiong out of the amp you Might need a low latency USB to audio converter as you might find the sound board on your laptop too slow to respond

I got one of these, but whilst very cheap, there is still some latency, and there is a buzzing noise that gets picked up with USB activity.

http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/UCA222.aspx

so it might pay to get something a bit more decent..

The Y-man

 

[randoker]

My eyes are bleeding from looking at midi controllers.

I've narrowed it down to these three:

In the bargain category:
studiologic sl 990 xp
Can get them for around $400USD online

In the mid-level category:
m-audio oxygen 88
$500 - 600 online

And in the just slightly out of my price bracket category:
akai mpk88
$650 - 800 online

I just put in an ebay bid for the M-Audio for $350 but doubt I'll win it.
I'm leaning toward the Studiologic anyway, as everything I've read online indicates that it has a great realistic piano action, which is my top priority anyway.

 

[The Y_man]

Good luck!

Keep us posted on how you go.

The Y-man

 

[ootini]

My eyes are bleeding from looking at midi controllers.

I've narrowed it down to these three:

In the bargain category:
studiologic sl 990 xp
Can get them for around $400USD online

In the mid-level category:
m-audio oxygen 88
$500 - 600 online

And in the just slightly out of my price bracket category:
akai mpk88
$650 - 800 online

I just put in an ebay bid for the M-Audio for $350 but doubt I'll win it.
I'm leaning toward the Studiologic anyway, as everything I've read online indicates that it has a great realistic piano action, which is my top priority anyway.

Hi, hope you don't mind me sticking my nose in.

The StudioLogic series master keyboards are relatively well built but lack any real controllers etc. They're quite basic in what they do, I also hear there are some issues with MIDI velocity values, as I understand it, they don't output anything above value 100, you might need to check this.
The M-Audio is not built particularly well, like most of the M-Audio line. That's why there are so many popping up on eBay. On paper they seem great, but in the flesh they're just disappointing.
I've recently bought a Roland A90, they're quite rare these days, but I have to say it is fantastic. It's built like a tank and has lots and lots of very useful MIDI controller capabilities. The keybed is renowned as being one of the best. If you get the A90EX version, it even comes with a sound board installed so you don't need the laptop and software.
Another fantastic master controller to keep an eye out for on eBay is the "original" Yamaha KX88, not the silly new plastic USB thing.

I've no experience of the Akai btw!

 

[randoker]

Thanks for the advice. I really appreciate all input. I have absolutely no experience with this stuff!

I found the Roland A90EX for $600 incl shipping on ebay and the Yamaha KX-88 for $330 incl shipping

If I go with the Yamaha I should still have enough money left to get decent studio monitors and whatever software/cables/adapters I would need.

I love the idea of being able to use an awesome virtual piano synth running on my laptop.

I'm a piano guy who is completely new to midi, so at this point having extra features other than a realistic keyboard isn't much concern. But I can see how once you start playing with this stuff you can really get sucked in and probably start mixing/recording and doing all kinds of fancy stuff on your pc.

Any other suggestions?

 

[ootini]

Thanks for the advice. I really appreciate all input. I have absolutely no experience with this stuff!

I found the Roland A90EX for $600 incl shipping on ebay and the Yamaha KX-88 for $330 incl shipping

If I go with the Yamaha I should still have enough money left to get decent studio monitors and whatever software/cables/adapters I would need.

I love the idea of being able to use an awesome virtual piano synth running on my laptop.

I'm a piano guy who is completely new to midi, so at this point having extra features other than a realistic keyboard isn't much concern. But I can see how once you start playing with this stuff you can really get sucked in and probably start mixing/recording and doing all kinds of fancy stuff on your pc.

Any other suggestions?

Of the two, I'd take the A90EX. I think the best piece of advice is try and find a shop or local musician who owns one and try it out, see what you think. At the end of the day it's all about the feel. Buying something blind, based purely on other people advice is a risky business.

p.s. That A90EX is almost half what I paid for mine only two months ago here in the UK!

 

[randoker]

I've seen a lot of demos where with the newer controllers you can assign the knobs/sliders and use them with a software package so you don't have to use the mouse. Is this something only the newer controllers do, or do the older ones work that way to?

 

[ootini]

The older ones can do this, the A90 can for example. But there's a certain "fashion" at the moment to pile as many knobs and sliders onto a controller as possible, the M-Audio is the obvious example. Only thing is, you're sacrificing the keyboard quality itself to get all the extra controllers bolted on at a reasonable price. Personally, I would buy the best keyboard I could regardless of the controllers and then in the future if I really wanted some slider / knob action (ahem) I'd add something like this to the rig.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PHAT-BOY-...Controllers&hash=item3cc0b0124b#ht_500wt_1413

There's lots of similar "knob boxes" out there to choose from. I'd prioritize what you need first and foremost.

p.s. I'm not sure what sort of real time controller capabilities the KX88 has btw! Also if you're just playing piano I can't see you needing that much hands on interference with the sound source. If it was an analogue setup you were going for that would be a different story.

 

[randoker]

Cool. Thanks for the info.

I found a local guy selling a Roland A90EX for $695. Just emailed him to see if I can take a look. Maybe he'll take $500.

Have you any experience with the Kurzweil PC88MX? Found someone selling it locally for $600.

--Kerry

 

[ootini]

Never used a PC88MX I'm afraid, I know Kurzweil gear is very, very good on the whole. As far as I understand it I think the PC88 is more of a "Stage piano" than a master controller.

**I was wrong, it looks like a proper controller, still have no real experience of it though.

 

[randoker]

I've gone full circle. Am now back to looking at DP's.
I may get sacked due to spending all my time on the internet instead of working.

I'm feel so f'ing exhausted after looking at several generations worth of hardware and opinions.

All I want is
* a keyboard that relatively realistically mimics a piano
* and insanely massive awesome sound quality

After initially getting hyped about all the sliders, pads, and knobs, I now realize I'm not the type to go off finger drumming and looping samples from vinyl. Hell I don't even want to play with another live human being in the equation.

I am finding that for the same price midi controller, you could get a digital piano with a far superior action.

I wonder though, is it a waste to put all that quality into the piano, and then pump it through the shitty built-in speakers?

So maybe the best recipe for my unique requirements is to get a good DP, run midi out to my laptop with a good virtual keyboard synth, and then out to decent monitors.

 

[randoker]

When will this madness end

 

[ootini]

Dude, for the money you're not gonna find a digital piano that can compete with the Roland A90 you linked.
It's more powerful, has damn good sounds, and is about as flexible as you could possibly ask for. The build quality is second to none. I know I sound like I'm trying to sell you one, but after having bought one recently, I really couldn't be happier with mine.
Oh and it has the "Gucci" factor! Image is everything......

 

[ootini]

So maybe the best recipe for my unique requirements is to get a good DP, run midi out to my laptop with a good virtual keyboard synth, and then out to decent monitors.

This defeats the point of the DP to begin with, why buy a keyboard with sounds if you're certain you'll be using Soft Samples?

Are you sure your laptop spec is up to running a decent sample playback with lots of polyphony?

I'd take hardware over the software everytime, it's more stable and sounds "as" good. I know this is subjective but it's my opinion. If you want ABSOLUTE awesome sound quality, apparently Kawai make some of the best digital pianos but as I understand it, they're very expensive.

 

[randoker]

I realize my two top priorities are

#1.... feel like a good acoustic piano
#2.... sound like a good acoustic piano

Maybe this makes me a fish out of water on a keyboard forum VS a piano forum somewhere else.

I did extensive research online and went out and banged away on a few stage pianos and digital pianos at all the local music stores.

Casio dig pianos are supposed to be ok but they just don't feel right to me.
Roland is awesome but their stage/digital pianos don't feel like what I'm used to (had a 50" upright Kawai before)
Korg has some sweet equipment with vintage whimsy, but I didn't like the feel when playing

It's mostly personal taste, but for me Yamaha is closest thing that I can find to realistic piano hammer action.

Then came a reality check, as the models I liked were $1,000+ (USD), like the yamaha CP-33 and P-155

So I went bargain hunting and found that two other current models in my price range were in the P series, the P85 and P95.
About $100 spread at around $500 and $600 respectively.

The main diff from what I can afford and what I want is that they are GHS (graded hammer standard) VS GH (graded hammer)... the keyboard action isn't quite as realistic. (and maybe only 64 note poly VS 128 but I'll never know the diff)

BUT... for the same price... 500 or so... the action is still way way way more real than an older Roland stage piano like the A90 or something else... However, I can see that if I weren't so picky about the key action, the vintage Roland's and other controllers are much better deals. But I am just a lowly piano snob so the other bells and whistles on the midi controllers are not as appealing...

So I just ordered an open box Yamaha P95B on Ebay for $499.

Thanks for everyones help here. It's been quite a process. I have been consumed. I can't sleep. All I do is think about keyboards.

And you know it's funny. The Akai MPK88 ($799) is f'ing awesome looking and kept nagging at me the whole time. 88 key Midi controller with weighted keys, sweet layout and nice array of buttons/sliders. The action feels nothing like a real piano, but, at the end of the day, am I really ever going to be a f'ing concert pianist? Am I inflating my requirements based on who I think I am and not reality? Should I go with the MPK88 and get a sweet virt piano synth with good headphones/amps?

I'm an intermediate pianist who repeats the same pop songs over and over again just for fun, in the hopes that one day I'll be able to repeat them like a parrot and impress someone.

In the end, I think I realized I care about the action, but can't afford the best.

So getting the GHS Yamaha P95, and having some money left over for good headphones is a good deal for me.

 

[randoker]

This defeats the point of the DP to begin with, why buy a keyboard with sounds if you're certain you'll be using Soft Samples?

They keyboards with "sounds" that have realistic hammer action are cheaper than the ones without sounds that have realistic hammer action. With the qualifying comment that this statement is extremely subjective. I realize that what feels right for me to play might not for others.

But they ALL have midi out... So why can't I still run it into my laptop and use a badass keyboard synth to get the grandest sound possible out to some decent monitors?

yes, the keyboard has its own synth and speakers, but I'm buying it bc it's action feels better than the ones without, and its cheaper. So since I'm saving money on the keyboard, why not get a better software synth and better amp/speakers than the built in ones?

 

[ootini]

True, I see your point, I just meant that in theory a Master keyboard costing £1000 should have more functionality and a better keybed than a digital piano worth £1000 as the developers wouldn't have had to cost in the samples and sound creation. But again this is in theory, and in a perfect world.

As you say, it's all down to what YOU like. No one can tell you that. Personally I love the A90 and most Yamahas, but don't like Korgs on the whole, someone else may have the exact opposite opinion. As long as whatever you buy has a MIDI out, you always have the choice of playing soft synths.
It also depends what you want to do in the future, a full spec Master keyboard would be more "future proof" than a digital piano as far the MIDI spec etc goes, but this is only important if you wish to expand your rig and what it can do in the future. If you simply want to play pianos and the odd soft synth, then you know what to do. Find a piano you like, and buy it.