Stage Piano + Synth?

[penguinbeats]

What's up guys,

I'm looking to buy my first legit electronic keyboard. Right now I play on an acoustic upright most of the time, and I have a 150 dollar yamaha keyboard for playing late at night.

Basically, I need a keyboard for performances. I do a lot of singer-songwriter stuff with just vocals and piano, so weighted keys and good piano sounds are a must. However, I'm starting to get more into performing rock and electronica, so I'm also interested in keyboards that allow me to make my own patches and edit sounds extensively. The question is, should I get something like a fantom, which has good piano sounds and synth editing, or should I get a pure stage piano and then a second keyboard which is exclusively a synth?

Thoughts? Also, if it's been covered somewhere, can anyone could point me to a Fantom v Triton v Motif thread?

Thanks in advance

 

[penguinbeats]

Also, thoughts on the MO-8 if you've got em.

 

[kanthos]

Depends what your budget is. I'm buying a Korg right now, and when I get it, my setup will be a Nord Stage 73 (organ, piano, keys, simple analog synth) and a Korg of some sort (everything else, layering capabilities, and so on). Then again, I like a semi-weighted feel better than fully weighted (otherwise, I'd have gotten the Nord Stage 76 or 88). I try to play organ authentically, so having two keyboards is essential for that, and the Nord Stage fits the bill perfectly; other than buying an actual two-manual organ-style keyboard, I don't know of anything else that has great organ sounds and uses drawbars.

If you're set on 88 keys and a weighted feel, you've got two general choices: a stage piano and a workstation keyboard or a workstation keyboard with good action. If you want two keyboards at once, the first choice is the better one, although it'll be more expensive (you're not going to find a half-decent stage piano and workstation keyboard for cheaper than the workstation keyboard, even if you get the stage piano and a workstation with fewer, non-weighted keys).

As for models, Triton is pretty much phased out at this point, unless you buy used. After the Triton, Korg produced the Triton LE, a budget Triton, and then made the Triton Extreme and TR series to replace the Triton and LE. The M50 is in the process of replacing the TR series now, and I'm pretty sure the Triton Extreme is entirely discontinued, replaced by the M3.

Personally, I prefer Korg to Roland; I find Roland's brass and strings less realistic and find Korg's UI easier to use (whether it's touch-based or not). The Korg M3 is also a bit cheaper than the Fantom, I think.

When I looked at what to buy, I didn't really consider Yamaha models. The Motif line was priced more than I wanted to spend, and the lower-budget Yamahas don't give as much polyphony and didn't impress me as much. The Motif is generally considered the holy grail of reasonably-priced keyboards (ignoring the Korg OASYS) though. Other people here have different opinions of Yamaha; I'm sure someone will offer one.

Honestly, the best thing you can do is head to your local music store and try out models from all three brands and maybe a high-end Kurzweil as well.

 

[Skipp]

very nice reply from kanthos... and a reasonable one too...

As a former MotifES owner i can write something about that keyboard but since you need a great piano sound/feel let's put it this way...

I believe you'll be best off with a stage piano + a workstation (that's what i'm planning to get myself).

I own a Yamaha CP33, it's a great stage piano, brilliant sounds and excellent feel. I've tried a lot of stage pianos, but i always tend to go back to yamaha when it comes down to piano sounds.

CP33 has 3 types of pianos, each of them having 2 variations, and each variation can be set up as bright, normal or mellow... so it's basically 3x2x3 sounds when it comes to pianos so you would be able to set it up any way you want.

On the other hand you can even tingle with the action responce putting it to hard, normal, or soft depending on how hard you hit the keys.

It would be great to get a semi-weighted action workstation. So you can play hammonds and other stuff easier (playing hammond sounds on weighted keys is NOT a pretty sight)

When it comes to the brand, i'll agree with Kanthos - korg all the way. Even the older models have great sounds, especially the synth/pad/string section.

If you're on a tight budget after buying the stage piano, go for used tritons. They're build like tanks, but if you need a light keyboard easy to transfer then go for the "light" triton versions like the TR or the LE

 

[kanthos]

On the topic of semi-weighted action on a workstation keyboard, there are the Korg M3 61 and 73-key models. I still prefer my semi-weighted Nord Stage to those, but I liked them almost as much, plus the sounds are great and there's all kinds of options. If I have the cash for it, the M3 is my workstation of choice.

Besides that though, semi-weighted workstations are pretty much non-existant.

 

[Skipp]

On the topic of semi-weighted action on a workstation keyboard, there are the Korg M3 61 and 73-key models. I still prefer my semi-weighted Nord Stage to those, but I liked them almost as much, plus the sounds are great and there's all kinds of options. If I have the cash for it, the M3 is my workstation of choice.

Besides that though, semi-weighted workstations are pretty much non-existant.

yea... sorry about that... i was aiming not to get a "plasticky keys" keyboard

 

[PianoMan]

Alrighty the little I know about triton/motif/fantom:
Motif is good for EP sounds... rhodes, wurly, clav, organs. Not so hot on strings/pads/synth. I tried the EP sounds on these, very nice. Didn't get to the other sounds, so that's all heresay
Korg (triton, M3, etc.) good for strings/pads, brass/woodwinds maybe? not so hot on EP sounds and piano sounds. This is all heresay, never played one.
Fantom good for strings and pads, and apparently not brass/woodwinds. A friend of mine uses a Fantom for dream-theatre like playing, and I borrowed it for some jazz stuff... baaad EP sounds. Personally I'm not crazy about the piano sound on it either. There's a lot of customization (how open the piano lid is), but the actual sound wasn't great. Could've been the amp, but there you have that.

Alright so the stage piano recommendation eh? I got to try a Nord Stage at a store briefly... gotta say the piano sound on there impressed me, since everyone seems to bash it. Wurly/clav sounds are nice, organ is nice. Didn't get to try the synth (don't know anything about them so didn't know what to do). Kanthos would be able to tell you more, but it might be worthwile. Overpriced IMO.

Yamaha CP-33 I tried in a store for a bit... decent action, didn't like the piano sounds (I'm not a fan of yamaha acoustic pianos either), though a lot of people do so might wanna check it out, of only for the action.

Another thing to consider, for purely piano sounds, is the GEM RP-X sound module
http://keyboards-midi.musiciansfriend.com/product/Gem-RPX-Sound-Module?sku=702865 hooked up to some keyboard (CP-33) or midi controller with an action you like, possibly something by studiologic.
http://keyboards-midi.musiciansfrie...gic-VMK188plus-Controller-Keyboard?sku=700737
http://keyboards-midi.musiciansfrie...XP-88Note-Weighted-MIDI-Controller?sku=708348
I believe the studiologic controllers (specifically the VMK, not sure about the SL) have the same action as the Nord Stage, if this is the case I would recommend it (they are both Fatar actions I think).

I bought a Roland RD-300sx 8 months ago... I initially liked the piano sound in it quite a bit, and through headphones they're ok, but I always end up going to the EP sounds on it. Basically... keyboards do not sound like pianos. They're somewhat close, but unless the GEM RP-X is mind-blowing, I haven't heard a keyboard that sounds close enough to my tastes. Still doesn't respond and act like a piano. There's some good software out there like pianoteq and ivory and things like that I haven't checked out, but on-board sounds on stage pianos I'm not crazy about.

For action as well I'm not crazy about hammer-action (and I've played nothing but acoustic for 18 years). None of the ones I've played, Yamaha cp300 (this was admittedly the best one), Roland RD-700gx (decent, overrated IMO), feel like an actual piano. I'm actually likely going to buy a motif rack and a semi-weighted controller soon and go that route. Depends on your needs I suppose.

Personally if I wanted a keyboard that sounded as close to a piano as possible, I'd be inclined to get a GEM RP-X sound module with a controller (I'd either try it out first or just return it if it sucked). The cool thing about that option is it costs just about the same as buying a Yamaha CP-33 but there's a lot more piano samples and editing options (I believe anyway). My knowledge of that comes from other forums where a lot of professional keyboardists post. Take it for what it's worth.

 

[kanthos]

The Nord Stage is something you buy for the EP, piano, and most of all B3 sounds (the Vox and Farfisa engines are great too, but the sounds of those organs aren't as common.) The synth is very limited in terms of what you can do. I don't know that much about synths yet, but compared to just about anything else, it's really lacking. It's got about 9 different analog waveforms, a few preset FM combinations (but no way to edit the FM algorithm), and about 75 digital waveforms that can be used as the oscillator. Yes, only one oscillator, although there are a few "hidden" oscillators that you can't tweak that are used in various modulation effects. Part of the limitation is probably from trying to cram a lot of physical controls onto the keyboard.

Anyway, if you want realistic organ playing where you can actually set the drawbars and not pick from a few presets, and you want to be able to modify the drawbars easily, the Stage is the keyboard for you (or the Nord C1, the two-manual organ, although it doesn't have the piano/EP or synth sections); look at the synth section as a nice bonus to a good keyboard. Don't buy the Stage because of the synth; you'll invariably be disappointed.

 

[PianoMan]

If you wouldn't use the synth in a stage, why not a Nord Electro 2, or better yet the soon-to-be-released Nord Electro 3?

 

[kanthos]

Oh, I use it; I just didn't treat it as a serious consideration when I bought the Stage as opposed to buying something else. Compared to the electro though, the Stage has a better-quality piano sound and lets you play two organ manuals at the same time as up to two piano or EP instruments (and also 2 synths). The Electro 2 will do two organ manuals in isolation or one piano in isolation. I haven't looked at the Electro 3 so I don't know what improvements it will have when it releases.