Yamaha Sound Control and Faders

SeaGtGruff

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The keyboard's outgoing MIDI will be sent on different channels according to the parts being sent:

- The Main Voice part is sent on channel 1.
- The Dual Voice part is sent on channel 2.
- The Split Voice part is sent on channel 3.

- The Drums 1 part is sent on channel 9.
- The Drums 2 part is sent on channel 10.
- The Bass part is sent on channel 11.
- The Chord 1 part is sent on channel 12.
- The Chord 2 part is sent on channel 13.
- The Pad part is sent on channel 14.
- The Phrase 1 part is sent on channel 15.
- The Phrase 2 part is sent on channel 16.

However, which parts are actually sent will depend on three function settings and other on/off settings:

- The Keyboard Out function controls whether the Main Voice, Dual Voice, and Split Voice are sent.
- The Dual on/off button controls whether the Dual Voice is sent when Keyboard Out is turned on.
- The Split on/off button controls whether the Split Voice is sent when Keyboard Out is turned on.

- The Style Out function controls whether the eight style parts (Drums 1 through Phrase 2) are sent.
- The six Track Control on/off buttons control which style parts are sent when Style Out is turned on.

- The Song Out function controls whether the 16 song parts (the 16 channels of a User Song) are sent.
- The actual number of channels in the User Song vary depending on what was recorded.
- The six Track Control on/off buttons also control which song parts are sent when Song Out is turned on.
- Song Out cannot be used to output the built-in songs or any MIDI files; only User Songs can be output.
 
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@SeaGtGruff Info you provided in the above is very helpful! (Curious what channel 4 & 5 for? btw) I finally found a little app called WIDI Midi Studio. It seems to be giving what I'm looking for and the interface is pretty intuitive. Of course I just started playing with it. At least I could indeed input my keyboard strokes in it and output it back with a simple control (volume) on the app. And I did try a channel 16 on Style output and it seems to be working too. Talking about potential! Thanks again. I'll come back for more questions (or answers rather) later!
 
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Well, correction - it works well with user songs but not so much with styles. Not sure if styles can be manipulated at all although I set style out = ON. Btw, @SeaGtGruff I don’t think the local control should be turned off. Unless I missed something, every time I turned it off there’s no sound coming out. I guess the local control controls receiving midi as well maybe.
 

SeaGtGruff

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Turning off the Local Control is supposed to turn off the sounds being made by the keyboard in response to the keys you press, including the style playback, but it doesn't stop the MIDI data from being transmitted; in other words, it essentially turns your keyboard into a MIDI keyboard controller.

Turning off the Local Control does not affect the incoming MIDI data, and still allows the keyboard to act as a MIDI sound module, so it will still generate sounds in response to the MIDI data it's receiving.

Thus, whether or not you want to turn off the Local Control depends on how you want to use your keyboard.

If you want to use your keyboard normally, then you'll want to turn on its Local Control so it makes sounds when you play on its keys.

If you want to use your keyboard to control a virtual instrument or connected hardware-- such as a second keyboard that you want to play using the DGX-660's keyboard-- then you'll want to turn off its Local Control so it's silent and the sound comes from the virtual instrument or connected hardware without the keyboard's sounds interfering.

If you want to do a little of both-- split the keys into different zones so you can use some of the keys to play the keyboard's sounds but use other keys to play sounds from a virtual instrument or connected hardware-- then you'll most likely want to turn off its Local Control so it's silent, but have it connected to a computer, tablet, or other device that can process the MIDI data being transmitted from the keyboard and route some of that data back to the keyboard and some of that data to the virtual instrument or connected hardware. The exception would be if your keyboard has settings which let you create zones that can either play the keyboard itself or control a connected device, in which case you could leave the Local Control turned on. Unfortunately, the DGX-660's MIDI-related functions don't include that type of feature, so you would need to use an external MIDI processor and router to do the work for you.
 
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That makes sense, but I’m struggling with the local control. It just doesn’t work for me. With the new app, I seem to be able to manipulate the songs saved on the instrument (including demo and presets) and the modifications are heard instantly on the instrument. I am hoping to do the same to the sound played on the keyboard hopefully including sounds from styles, but so far it has been unsuccessful. Local control on or off, the instrument just doesn’t respond to the app when it comes to sounds played on the keyboard. Who knew a task that sounds simple turned out so damn hard!
 

SeaGtGruff

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This is using the WIDI Midi Studio app you mentioned?
 
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Yes. I thought the demo version which only allowed adding two controls worked with the keyboard sound, but after I purchased the full version the function seemed lost (??). Reached out to their support, and waiting for answers. Otherwise I like what I can do with the songs and the UI is intuitive.
 
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@SeaGtGruff Just to keep you updated. I’ve been emailing with WIDI support back and forth. It turns out that they don’t “know better” either. The two way connection between the app and my instrument is perfectly set up. The control learning responds to at least some knob turns and some functions in the main voice section and general section (although I had to tie it with one channel, e.g for testing purpose the sustain function). All works well with the songs saved on instrument. Nothing however has an impact to the keyboard live play.

They now think Yamaha had the keyboard control encoding proprietary possibly. They could be right. I see the Yamaha apps like faders and sound control can indeed control the keyboard but not as much the songs and UI is so inflexible. What do you think? Do you knowwhat’s the best way to get technical support from Yamaha support?
 

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I have no ideas on how to get hold of technical support, but the DGX models-- as well as the PSR-E models-- definitely do not let you affect the keyboard parts (Main Voice, Dual Voice, and Split Voice) via MIDI, at least not by default.

The PSR-S, Tyros, and Genos models also do not let you affect the keyboard parts via MIDI by default, but they have MIDI functions in their menus that let you assign incoming MIDI channels to the keyboard parts, and the XG specifications include a message for doing that.

Unfortunately, the PSR-E and DGX models don't have functions like that in their menus, and they don't seem to respond to the XG message for doing that. However, that might be because they are XGlite models rather than XG models, and the parameter addresses for certain messages might be different on XGlite models than they are for XG models-- but that's just a wild guess.

The workaround is to route the keyboard's MIDI back to itself so the keyboard parts are essentially transformed into song parts, since the song parts are affected by MIDI.
 
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The keyboard's outgoing MIDI will be sent on different channels according to the parts being sent:

- The Main Voice part is sent on channel 1.
- The Dual Voice part is sent on channel 2.
- The Split Voice part is sent on channel 3.

- The Drums 1 part is sent on channel 9.
- The Drums 2 part is sent on channel 10.
- The Bass part is sent on channel 11.
- The Chord 1 part is sent on channel 12.
- The Chord 2 part is sent on channel 13.
- The Pad part is sent on channel 14.
- The Phrase 1 part is sent on channel 15.
- The Phrase 2 part is sent on channel 16.
Is this info documented in any official Yamaha manual? @SeaGtGruff

I'm having a deya vu here. I was playing around with the Yamaha Faders (which is supposed to have similar functions as WIDI but with a much less flexible UI). I don't know what I hit in the settings, which is really simple and has little to play with, but all of I sudden I got it to control my keyboard perfectly - applying effects on all channels including the styles on separate channels and playing them right back to the instrument with no delay. How nice! Then I went back to WIDI only to find that it behaves exactly the same way now! I updated WIDI support but told them I didn't know if it would stick because I really had no idea how the heck it happened and why the two apps were in sync. For a moment I thought it was the "auto transmission" setting in Faders that did the trick - turn it on, it's controlling the keyboard but losing the ability to modify song files; turn it off, vice versa. Sure enough, a few hours later when I came back, it's all gone - from Faders as well as from WIDI. I tweaked and tweaked, it never came back. Now that's a head scratch that couldn't stop the itch for a while!
 

SeaGtGruff

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As far as I know, the MIDI Out channels for the Main Voice, Dual Voice, and Split Voice keyboard parts aren't listed in a manual, at least not for the PSR-E and DGX models.

They're listed in the documentation for the PSR-S, Tyros, and Genos models, but if I'm not mistaken the MIDI Out channels are slightly different for those models:

Channel 1 = Right 1 keyboard part (equivalent to "Main Voice")
Channel 2 = Left keyboard part (equivalent to "Split Voice")
Channel 3 = Right 2 keyboard part (equivalent to "Dual Voice")

You can determine the MIDI Out channels for yourself by monitoring the MIDI Out events on a computer or tablet while playing the keyboard.

As for the MIDI Out channels for the eight style parts, I think they're documented in the manuals for the PSR-S, Tyros, and Genos models, and they've also been documented (but not by Yamaha) in unofficial documents about the file formats and data structures of Yamaha's "SFF1" (a.k.a. "SFF") and "SFF2" (a.k.a. "SFF-GE") style file formats.
 
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@SeaGtGruff Lets just say I finally found a “workaround” so now I can manipulate the sound out of the keyboard and send it back. This is helpful not only because I now don’t have to loop through the function menu trees for every setting I need to tweak but also because it allows me to use some effects that are not built in such as attack, release etc. and apply them to different channels of keyboard output. About these new effects, I’ve read some but it seems still abstract to me. Do you have some quick examples to show how to make use of cutoff, resonance, attack, release and decay to make better music? (I’m not talking about music editing/production but rather settings made for live performance). Thanks.
 
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If you download a user Manual for a Workstation which has control knobs to adjust in real time, such as the one for a Korg Kross 2 on page 31 it describes and shows graphically what each of the functions actually do.
 

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If you download a user Manual for a Workstation which has control knobs to adjust in real time, such as the one for a Korg Kross 2 on page 31 it describes and shows graphically what each of the functions actually do.
The “graphical illustrations” taught the concepts, Which is nice, but I’m also hoping someone can tell me about their experience in using them.
 

SeaGtGruff

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I've started writing up some comments, but I have to go shopping and fix dinner, so I won't finish writing them up and posting some actual examples until later tonight.
 

SeaGtGruff

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I'm in the USA. I had to get up early yesterday morning for the housecleaners, which meant I had to go to bed earlier than usual the night before instead of working on my comments. And then I was helping my sister move the last of her stuff out of a rental house and into the house she'd bought, so yesterday and the night before were pretty much a wash.

On top of that, the comments I was writing up didn't get saved, so I'm having to start all over. I'll just post some general comments for now, and see about posting some specific examples later.

According to its MIDI Reference, the DGX-660 has several parameters you can change to modify a channel's (or voice's) sound:

CC #1 - Modulation
CC #5 - Portamento Time
CC #7 - Volume
CC #10 - Pan
CC #11 - Expression
CC #64 - Sustain Pedal On/Off
CC #65 - Portamento On/Off
CC #66 - Sostenuto Pedal On/Off
CC #67 - Soft Pedal On/Off
CC #71 - Resonance Amount or "Harmonic Content"
CC #72 - Release Time
CC #73 - Attack Time
CC #74 - Cutoff Frequency or "Brightness"
CC #84 - Portamento Control
CC #91 - Reverb Depth
CC #93 - Chorus Depth
CC #94 - DSP Depth

These can be discussed in groups, since some of them are more or less related to each other:

Volume (CC #7), Expression (CC #11), Pan (CC #10), and Modulation (CC #1) - Volume is used to set the overall loudness of the channel, and it usually isn't changed once it's been set. In contrast, Expression can be used to temporarily increase or decrease the loudness of the channel while you're playing, similar to using a "swell" pedal on an organ. Pan lets you shift the sound of the channel toward the left or right speaker, which can help create better sound separation between the channels when you're playing multiple voices at once. And Modulation lets you add vibrato, tremolo, or other type of modulation to the channel's sound; the specific type of modulation depends on how the patch or voice is programmed on the keyboard.

Portamento On/Off (CC #65), Portamento Time (CC #5), and Portamento Control (CC #84) - Portamento On/Off lets you enable or disable the portamento effect, which causes the pitch to slide smoothly from one note to another. Portamento Time determines how quickly or slowly the pitch slides from one note to another. And Portamento Control can be used to set the note from which the portamento slide should begin, as opposed to beginning from the note last played.

Sustain Pedal On/Off (CC #64), Sostenuto Pedal On/Off (CC #66), and Soft Pedal On/Off (CC #67) - Sustain Pedal On/Off lets you sustain all notes played while the sustain pedal is being depressed. Sostenuto Pedal On/Off lets you sustain all notes which were being held down at the time the sostenuto pedal was depressed, but any subsequent notes played will not be sustained even though the sostenuto pedal is still being depressed. And Soft Pedal On/Off can be used to temporarily soften the notes being played.

Cutoff Frequency (CC #74) and Resonance Amount (CC #71) - These parameters are related to the sound filter, which controls how much of a note's harmonic content is allowed through. There are different types of filters-- low-pass, high-pass, band-pass, comb, and others-- but these two parameters are for a low-pass filter, which lets through (or "passes") the frequencies below the cutoff point, but filters out the frequencies above the cutoff point. This isn't an instantaneous or abrupt cutting-off, but more of a sloping-off. The Cutoff Frequency lets you raise or lower the frequency or pitch of the cutoff point. The Resonance Amount lets you emphasize the harmonic frequencies which are at or near the cutoff point. Together, these two parameters let you change the "brightness" or "darkness" of a voice, but they're also commonly used to create "filter sweeps" by cranking up the Resonance Amount and then varying the Cutoff Frequency from low to high, or from high to low, while a note is playing. Synths usually have a low-frequency oscillator that lets you automatically vary the filter in a continuous loop. The DGX-660 doesn't have a low-frequency oscillator or LFO, but you can create a similar effect via MIDI.

Attack Time (CC #73) and Release Time (CC #72) - These parameters are related to the amplitude envelope generator or AEG, which is used to shape the amplitude of a note's sound over time. Synths generally have rather complex amplitude envelope generators, usually with at least four parameters-- attack time, decay time, sustain level, and release time, such that the amplitude envelope is commonly called an "ADSR" envelope (Attack/Decay/Sustain/Release)-- but depending on the synth there can be fewer than four parameters, and in some cases more than four parameters. "ROMpler" keyboards such as the DGX-660 are different than analog synths, since their voices are created by playing back sound samples rather than by generating soundwaves with oscillators, so for the most part the overall shape of their voices' amplitude envelopes are determined by the sound samples themselves. However, it's still possible to vary the amplitude envelope's shape by stretching or compressing the attack phase, decay phase, and release phase of the sound sample, although the effectiveness of doing so can differ from voice to voice. Yamaha's XG-compatible keyboards can vary the attack time, decay time, and release time, but their XGlite-compatible keyboards (such as the DGX-660) don't include the ability to vary the decay time. The Attack Time lets you control how quickly or slowly a note builds up to its maximum amplitude after striking a key. The Release Time lets you control how quickly or slowly a note fades out after the key has been released.

Reverb Depth (CC #91), Chorus Depth (CC #93), and DSP Depth (CC #94) - These parameters are related to the reverb, chorus, and DSP effects. It should be noted that the actual Reverb Type, Chorus Type, and DSP Type are controlled by System Exclusive events, and these three parameters simply determine the degree to which those effects are applied to each channel's voice. The Reverb Depth controls how much reverberation is added to the voice, which can make it sound as though you're playing in a large space where the sound of the keyboard has more room to bounce around and takes longer to be reflected back to your ears. The Chorus Depth controls how much chorusing is added to the voice, which can help make it sound as though multiple instruments are playing together in synchrony. The DSP Depth controls how much of the other DSP effect is applied to the voice. The DGX-660 has a variety of different DSP effects, so you should refer to its Data List for details.
 
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Thank you @SeaGtGruff ! Appreciate the time you spent on writing these comments. I'm studying them now. As said earlier, take your time. I have dug up some good utube tutorials and got some understanding of these terms. But I think it's still helpful to learn from experienced keyboarders like you the actual experience in using them.
 

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