Adding Effects. Program --> Combi

[Sargas]

I'm very interested in the new Korg M50, and I'm pretty sure that it's the keyboard I will buy as soon as I've got money for it.
But I've had some problems when adding effects to the sounds I'm creating (I've experienced the same on the M3, so I suppose this applies to most Korg keyboards, but M50 especially).

As far as I've understood, Program mode is for programming sounds, and is very seldom used for playing the sounds. Combi mode is for playing and layering sounds, with a little bit of programming to it.

So, here is what I want to do:

I make a cool lead sound in Program mode, which uses all of the 5 Insert Effects, and it sounds really good in Program mode.

Then I make another haunting strings/piano sound, that uses a 3-4 effects as well, and it sounds just like I want in the Program mode.

So, now I want to put those 2 in the same Combi, and make them sound just like they did in Program mode.
When I've been playing around in the stores, the effects that I add in program mode disappears when I use the sound in Combi mode.

I know that Combi mode has 5 Insert effects as well, but that would make it 5 effects per combi, and I want to have 5 effects per program

I really want this to work, since I think that it will be something that I use a lot if I buy it, and I can't really afford any other high-end workstation

Thanks in advance!

 

[evergreenthompson]

Since I've got one of these babies, let's see if I can help you out a bit.

As far as I've understood, Program mode is for programming sounds, and is very seldom used for playing the sounds. Combi mode is for playing and layering sounds, with a little bit of programming to it.

Actually, Program mode is great for playing sounds. Exactly what you want when you just want to play the piano, for example. In fact, after the keyboard boots up you are in Program Mode, with the M50 Grand Piano voice ready to go. Think of programs as your collection of individual voices, along with the many assorted settings you can adjust to tweak those voices.

But, as you said, Program mode is only good for a single voice (plus optional drum track). That's where Combination mode comes in.

A Combination (aka Combi) is simply a collection of up to 16 Programs. Again you have assorted settings you can adjust to tweak how those individual programs (voices) meld together. You can also layer and split those individual programs across the keyboard. So, you could have Piano on the entire keyboard, Brass on C1-B3, and Strings on C4-G9. Crossfades across the keyboard are also allowed, as well as velocity fades (Press key gently for one voice, hard for a different voice.)

So, here is what I want to do:
:
I know that Combi mode has 5 Insert effects as well, but that would make it 5 effects per combi, and I want to have 5 effects per program

As I understand (which I admit may be wrong!), effects are applied according to the mode you are in, either Program or Combi. So, you are allowed up to five insert effects for a program if you are in Program mode.

But if you are in Combi mode, the five available insert effects are applied to the individual programs, with each program assigned no more than one insert effect. For example you could apply IFX1 to Programs 1-3, 5, 7; and apply IFX2 to Programs 4, 8-9; etc.

To get what you want (five individual insert effects per program in the combi), I think you're going to have to use a DAW hooked up to the keyboard.

 

[Sargas]

Thanks for the quick reply!

As I've never had a keyboard with sound programming capabilities before, I don't really know what I might do if I have one. With some luck, I might never get in the situation where that will be needed... However it does feel a little bit limited...

Refresh my memory... What is a DAW? like a soundmodule connected to the keyboard through MIDI?

So, to be short. What I wanted to do is not possible with the M50 alone... Is there maybe any other keyboard that allows that?

 

[evergreenthompson]

DAW = Digital Audio Workstation (BTW, I had to look it up to remember the right words. Go figure!) Pick your favorite DAW software... Cubase, Pro-Tools, Logic, etc.

I'm guessing there is probably a keyboard out there that can do what you are asking, but for a LOT more money. But for comparison, I checked the specs on the M3 ($800-900 more than M50 of same keyboard size), and it appears to have the same limitations on effects.

Perhaps KARMA M50 will give you some of what you are looking for. The software isn't out yet, but should be very soon. (I can hardly wait!) There's a coupon in the M50 box for $50 off the software.

 

[Sargas]

Okey, so I suppose I will have to live without that for quite a few more years, as I can't really afford anything more expensive :/

We'll see when I get to that point when I have the opportunity to run a computer live, if it might be worth it for the extra possibilities it gives, for the risks that might follow.

And I think I mostly wanted this function so that I could save some memory slots. I.ex: I'm playing a riff with a sound that only needs one octave, then I change to another riff with another sound that only needs one octave as well. If this would work, I could put them in the same combi, but simply on different keys. Now I guess I would have to save them in different combis, which will require quite a few more memory slots...

Of course that example applies only to riffs with more than 2 effects... As I mentioned earlier, though, I don't know yet what kind of sounds I will program, since I haven't really had any sound programming capabilities available before.

Thanks for the help

 

[evergreenthompson]

If it's any consolation, you could spend an additional $5700-6700 for an Oasys. However, although it is rumored to be a spaceship that maybe be able to make breakfast, you'd still only get 12 insert effects total.

So, it looks like either a computer and/or multiple keyboards linked together might be the way for you completely do what you originally wanted to do.

In the short term, perhaps you'll be able to come close to the desired overall sound with some creative keyboard programming.

 

[kanthos]

Firstly, you're missing a bit: the M50 has up to 5 insert effects *as well as* two master effects and master EQ. So if you want to layer a few pads, each with reverb, you should use one of the master effects slots to apply the reverb (adjusting the dry/wet signal you send from each of your pad timbres), and use the insert effects for things that really need to be unique for a combi.

Realistically, I don't see this as too much as a limitation. I have the Korg TR which has only one insert effect and 2 master effects, and I've found that when you start layering many sounds, you don't notice the difference an individual effect on an individual timbre makes nearly as much as you would when playing with one timbre.

I'm also using a trick to add more effects by using a guitar effects unit (MIDI-controlled, even, so I can send program changes to it from the TR).

Unless you're sold on stereo sound, which isn't that important for live playing (and, incidentally, requires you to have a stereo mixing amp, use two channels on the house mixer, and depending on how much gear you have, your own personal mixer), you'll probably be connecting the left audio output to your amp or a DI box and playing in MONO.

Say you're using a fairly typical choice of some layered sounds for pads and some layered sounds for a thick lead sound, and using a keyboard split in the combi so that one hand plays each of the two "parts". Your lead sound will probably be more noticeable and will benefit more from a complex effects chain; your pads, not as much (some good reverb and delay may be all you need - these could be done with master effects).

Start by editing your combi so that all the pad sounds are panned hard left and all the lead sounds are panned hard right. This means that your lead sounds *will not be heard* from the L output (and also that your pad sounds will not be heard from the R output). Connect the R output to effects pedals and you now have your keyboard using two outputs.

The TR series has a second stereo output pair, which makes it a bit easier to route sounds to my effects pedal (I don't need to worry about panning; just assign some timbres to be routed to the extra outputs), but I've used the panning trick before.

Of course, if you're not playing live and just want to use the M50 to record, you could always record one part at a time, with full effects.

 

[Sargas]

Start by editing your combi so that all the pad sounds are panned hard left and all the lead sounds are panned hard right. This means that your lead sounds *will not be heard* from the L output (and also that your pad sounds will not be heard from the R output). Connect the R output to effects pedals and you now have your keyboard using two outputs.

Hey, that's a great idea! That will definitely be of use, thanks!

Firstly, you're missing a bit: the M50 has up to 5 insert effects *as well as* two master effects and master EQ. So if you want to layer a few pads, each with reverb, you should use one of the master effects slots to apply the reverb (adjusting the dry/wet signal you send from each of your pad timbres), and use the insert effects for things that really need to be unique for a combi.

As I'm rather new to the sound programming stuff, I don't really know the difference between Insert effects, Master effects and Total effects. So I don't really know how to use them. An explanation of that would be very appreciated

Of course, if you're not playing live and just want to use the M50 to record, you could always record one part at a time, with full effects.

I'm 99% sure that I will use the M50 for live performance. Otherwise it wouldn't really be that much of a problem

Realistically, I don't see this as too much as a limitation. I have the Korg TR which has only one insert effect and 2 master effects, and I've found that when you start layering many sounds, you don't notice the difference an individual effect on an individual timbre makes nearly as much as you would when playing with one timbre.

I really hope that that will be my experience as well, since that would probably avoid the problem

 

[kanthos]

I don't remember reading anything in the M50 documentation about a total effect, but as I understand it, there's nothing really different between insert effects and master effects on the M50 or TR, other than that insert effects are applied to a single timbre and master effects are applied to all timbres. (Of course, you can bypass any effect).

This kind of model comes from traditional mixers, where each channel will have some number of insert effect send/receive loops that would be processed in order, and then a few overall effects (sometimes built into the mixer itself, sometimes done as global send/receive loops) for things like reverb and EQ. The idea is that each individual mixer track gets the insert effects applied to it in order, and then the processed individual tracks get combined and sent through the master effects; this is basically the model the M50 is using.

Say your band has a bass player and guitarist, and both are playing through the mixer, and assume that the musicians are idiots and forgot to bring their own effects pedals. The sound engineer might compensate by adding chorus and distortion inserts on the guitar channel and adding a high-pass EQ to reduce the "punch" from the low bass sound. The mixer would combine the chorused, distorted guitar with the filtered bass and send them both through a reverb unit.

As for the two-output trick, it has two purposes as far as I know. One, as I mentioned, is to let you add different external effects to each output (I'm going to plug my PodXT; it's a relatively cheap unit that lets you use something like 8 effects in an order that's sensible for a guitarist, which is fine - keyboard players often want to use the same effects in similar ways). The other purpose would be to make it really easy to mix two sets of keyboard voices.

A standard setup with an amp and one keyboard is to have the keyboard connected to a DI box, and the DI's "to amp" output going into your amp so you can hear yourself. With multiple keyboards or multiple outputs, you either need to get a mixer for yourself or get an amp that allows for multiple channels of inputs and has an output. Whichever route you take, panning splits your signal and your amp or mixer can let you adjust the two volumes independently.

You'll probably want to make sure that all your voices are panned either hard left or hard right if you're using external effects. If you don't, you'll have some of a particular voice played cleanly and with effects, which basically turns your pan for that voice into a wet/dry knob (more to the right means more wet signal), which could be useful. Anything that should only be clean, though, should be panned hard left. Yes, you'll lose the stereo signal this way, but again, without a stereo amp and stereo connection to the main mixer, this doesn't matter anyway.

 

[evergreenthompson]

The Total Effect is just one more effect that you can apply after the Insert and Master Effects have optionally done their thing.

Too bad Korg doesn't have a good explanation of each kind of effect, rather than assuming everyone has memory of using these different effects with physical boxes and cables. I didn't really find a good explanation on the web either.

At least the manuals provide diagrams of how the effects fit together:

• Owner's Manual, p. 68
• Parameter Guide, pp. 287-288

The Parameter Guide provides information about how to control the effects via MIDI, pedals, etc.

 

[kanthos]

There's plenty of resources out there for guitar effects, like this. To some extent, effects are obvious (everyone should know what distortion or delay do, for example, just from the name), and you don't always need to know exactly *how* an effect works (I can't remember the difference between a phaser and a flanger for example), as long as you try them out and see what you like.

 

[evergreenthompson]

Great link, kanthos! But, I wish they would have given some background to insert, master, total effects, LOL.

 

[kanthos]

Well, like I said, you can use the same effects in each slot: I could use up all 5 inserts, both masters, and the total with reverb. They do make that pretty clear in the manual, given that you get the same choices of effects for each type of effect and, at least in the TR manual, there are diagrams showing you where the effects are added. I think I saw those in the M50 manual too.

Still, it can be daunting if you've never really thought about effects before. One way you could learn them pretty quickly is to download a demo version of Native Instruments' Guitar Rig 3 and route an audio signal from the M50 through GR3, standalone or in your DAW. GR3 should have the same types of effects the M50 has, but you'll probably find the interface slightly easier; if nothing else, the routing in GR3 is more obvious (top-to-bottom, unless you do a split, which is something not worth worrying about). Playing around and trying things out really is the best way to learn how effects work and what kind of sounds you can get out of each of them, both on their own and in a group.

 

[Doug Dixon]

If you want more insert effect its worth checking out a Korg Trinity, which was top of the range a few years ago. This was pre Triton but had a far more powerful effect section. You still had programs and combi and a very powerfull sequancer. You had upto 8 insert effects and 2 stereo master effects unit plus master EQ. You will have to look on the second hand market, but if you can find one, go for a Trinity V3 as in had the sounds and effects from the Prophecy and Z1 keyboards built in and if you are very lucky you may get one with the hard disk recorder so you can record your first sounds then re-use the effects on differant sounds.
I use a trinity and would not swap it for anything.