Just Tuning in a keyboard lab, with MIDI?

[craigru]

____When teaching keyboard, I like to say "listen to the harmonious sound when you play a chord" but in reality -- with typical Equal-Tempered Tuning that intentionally is "a little out-of-tune" -- a student hears some dissonance, with ugly “warbling beats” (especially due to interactions between 1st-and-3rd, 3rd-and-5th) instead of the beautiful harmony they would hear when playing these note-combos with Just-Intonation Tuning._ I want students to hear (at least sometimes) what harmonies sound like with Just Tuning.
____Therefore I'm wondering if MIDI can do what is needed so a keyboard lab can have individual playing with Just Tuning (I assume yes) and (less likely? or at least less easy?) also can have group playing with Just Tuning._ I'm hoping you can explain what's possible - and how - because I'm a newbie with very little knowledge about the capabilities of MIDI, and no experience using it._ But I'm fascinated by the educational possibilities IF it's practical to "have group playing [or individual playing] with Just Tuning" by using MIDI.

What I want is for Just Tuning to be done...
____1a. with an option to choose -- depending on the situation & musical goals -- either the usual Equal-Tempered Tuning (using keyboards as-is with no MIDI) or Just-Intonation Tuning (using MIDI), and
____1b. compatible with a keyboard's auto-transposing, so if Just Tuning (by MIDI) is done for C Major it also will be available for other keys if students "play in the key of C" (with Just Tuning) but can "hear in another key" (also with Just Tuning) by using the keyboard's transposing feature.
____2. using fairly cheap keyboards that have connections for MIDI, like Yamaha PSR-E373, Casio CT-S300, RockJam RJ761, and others.
____3. with multiple keyboards, maybe 10-25 for a K-12 classroom, 2-5 for a community center or senior living facility._ { if this can be done, how?_ What equipment or software is needed?_ Would it require lots of cables?_ could bluetooth be used? }
____4a. without being super-expensive, so it's OK for the limited budget of a school, center, or facility; and
____4b. without being super-difficult to set up and run, so it's feasible for a K-12 music teacher (who has some musical expertise but isn't a MIDI expert) or an activity director (typically with much less expertise with music & MIDI) in a community center or living facility.
____5. maybe having a way to cope with the ii-chord being horribly out-of-tune if other chords (iii,vi,I,IV,V) have Just Tuning.._ {soon I'll start another thread to discuss this topic because it's interesting & complex, and I want to keep this thread focused on other parts of my "wish list" in 1a-1b-2-3-4a-4b.}

 

[happyrat1]

While you can detune a note by bending it with a wheel or ribbon controller using MIDI, fine tuning the temperament of the keyboard is pretty much a feature accessible only through the Operating System of the individual board.

So your kludge is theoretically possible, but a nightmare to implement.

 

[SeaGtGruff]

I think what @happyrat1 may have meant by "Operating System" are "System Exclusive" MIDI messages.

Many keyboard manufacturers do have SysEx messages for scale tuning, so you would want to consult the MIDI-related documentation for whichever keyboard model you're wanting to use. Some models may have panel controls or menu functions that let you adjust the tuning for the individual notes of the scale, and some may even have convenient scale-tuning presets you can choose between so you don't need to set everything up manually.

I know that Yamaha has XG messages (one of Yamaha's groupings of SysEx messages) for setting the tuning for the notes of the scale, and some of its models have menu functions or even panel controls for this. For instance, I know the later models in the PSR-E400 series have menu functions for this, including some presets you can choose between. I'm not sure about the PSR-E300 series; I don't think they include the menu functions for this, but if not then they probably do respond to the XG scale-tuning messages. However, as far as actual console or panel controls for this, those seem to usually be limited to models designed for the Middle Eastern market.

I also know that Roland has GS messages (one of Roland's groupings of SysEx messages) for this, and has models with menu functions or panel controls for it.

 

[craigru]

___ Thanks for the useful info, SeaGtGruff._ Because PSR-E373 is a keyboard I've considered (re: features, cost,...) as a possible unit for an educational keyboard lab (in a k-12 school or senior living facility), I'm encouraged when you say
___ "I'm not sure about the PSR-E300 series; I don't think they include the menu functions for this, but if not then they probably do respond to the XG scale-tuning messages."
___ because IF they have either menu functions (but you think "no") or respond to "XG scale-tuning messages," maybe it's possible to play them with Just Tuning._ Regarding #4b on my wish-list (not being super-difficult to set up and run), probably I must learn how to "set up and run" -- hopefully with the help of experts (you & others) plus my own research, including experiments with my E373 -- and then show teachers how they can do it.
___ What is the process for sending "XG scale-tuning messages" to an E373, to see whether it responds in useful ways?

 

[SeaGtGruff]

I've been thinking more about this, and I don't think you'll be able to use the PSR-E373 for what you want to do, because that model isn't designed to respond to MIDI input for changing the voices and channel parameters.

The PSR-E473 could do it, because it has Function settings for scale tuning, and you could save different scale tunings to different Registrations, then switch between the different Registrations using the panel controls.