Pitch-bend wheel (with independent amounts for up & down)

[craigru]

I want to buy a keyboard with a special kind of pitch-bend wheel. Casio's CT-S300 (+ other models) lets a player adjust the range (number of semitones at maximum bend) but I think it's the same for up-bending and down-bending. Do some keyboards allow defining DIFFERENT AMOUNTS for the maximum up-bend and down-bend, with independent adjustments? (e.g. so maximum semitone changes are 1-downward but 4-upward) If yes, this would be very useful for musical creativity.

 

[happyrat1]

Never seen one.

 

[craigru]

Based on your profile-info, you seem to know a lot. So if you've "never seen one" does this make it likely that this feature doesn't exist?

 

[happyrat1]

Wanna buy a bridge?

 

[happyrat1]

Actually if you're handy with microcontrollers you could build them with a Raspberry Pi homebrew that you could sell to the only other musicians in the world who ever asked for such a thing. Asymetrical tonewheel? Right alongside the left handled hammer and the motorized tennis shoe

Seriously. Just finesse on the downshift.

 

[RedEyeC]

My Roland Fantom X6 has different pitch bend steps for different patches. All the bass patches have full step up / full step down. Most other synth patches have full step up / full octave down.

 

[anotherscott]

I want to buy a keyboard with a special kind of pitch-bend wheel. Casio's CT-S300 (+ other models) lets a player adjust the range (number of semitones at maximum bend) but I think it's the same for up-bending and down-bending. Do some keyboards allow defining DIFFERENT AMOUNTS for the maximum up-bend and down-bend, with independent adjustments? (e.g. so maximum semitone changes are 1-downward but 4-upward) If yes, this would be very useful for musical creativity.

This is actually a very common feature. I believe all the recent Korg workstations do this (I know that at least Kronos, Kross, and Microstation do), and Kurzweils (K2700 and PC4 series, as well as the PC3 series that preceded it), and Yamaha MODX/Montage, as well as the earlier Motif XS/XF and MOX/MOXF, at least. (And I think even the MX, using a 3rd-party editor, since it has no on-board deep editing.) So on their more deeply programmable boards, I think everyone except Roland supports this (or at least the Fantom/Fantom-0 don't appear to have this ability).

A common use is to program "bend up" for whole step bends, and "bend down" for deep "dive bomb" bends. And at least on some of these boards, you can do things like program the up and down to both bend up, but by different amounts.

 

[delaware dave]

My Kurzweil PC3 not only has independent up and down but its changeable by each layer in the program. So if the program has a 6 layer component, each layer can be changed independently and the upper and lower amount can be set differently. That's why it is a premium keyboard.

 

[craigru]

Dave Clews uses this combination -- described by RedEyeC (full step up / full octave down) and anotherscott (program "bend up" for whole step bends, and "bend down" for deep "dive bomb" bends) -- in a "Play Like a Pro" page to illustrate & explain (in a video and text) how this combination (+2, -12) lets you "take control over your pitchblend to play like Stevie Wonder" with "a Stevie Wonder-style Moog synth bassline."

 

[happyrat1]

I sheepishly withdraw my poignant attempt at humor.

Apparently if you drop enough coin on a board it will include this feature along with a zillion others to learn about in the 2000 pages of documentation

 

[craigru]

You (anotherscott) say "this is actually a very common feature" on workstations, like a Roland Fantom X6 (of RedEyeC) and Kurzweil PC3 (of delaware dave). You (anotherscott) also say "on some of these boards, you can do things like program the up and down to both bend up, but by different amounts" with a feature (bending by +x/+y for up/up, instead of +x/-y for up/down) that I hadn't even considered. And you (delaware dave) say "each layer can be changed independently and the upper and lower amount can be set differently. That's why it is a premium keyboard."
It's encouraging to know that these features are available, but AFAIK (with my limited knowledge) they aren't included in any budget keyboard, only "premium keyboards" like Kurzweil PC3. As happyrat1 says, "if you drop enough coin on a board it will include this feature along with a zillion others." But it would be useful if a low-priced keyboard (like Casio CT-S300 for $179) had the basic feature (independent maximum-bend adjustments for up-bending and down-bending) that I asked about. This combination (special feature + low price) would be personally useful because I want to teach (and encourage others to teach) classes -- in k12 schools, community centers, and senior facilities -- using keyboards that are more affordable for institutions (schools, centers, facilities) and for individual students. Although a class could be taught using keyboards with "no wheel" or typical "symmetric bending," some students might be interested in exploring the creative possibilities of "asymmetric bending."
I've read the "Pitch Bend Wheel" section in Casio's manuals for their CT-S300 and CT-X5000, and both models don't offer independent adjusting for up-versus-down. A player can customize the maximum bending, but it must be the same for up-bends and down-bends -- it can be (+1,-1), (+2,-2)... (+12,-12) for S300, and (+1,-1)... (+24,-24) for X5000 -- but the amounts cannot be different as in the (+2,-12) described by anotherscott and delaware dave here, and by Dave Clews in a page (with video) about a technique of Stevie Wonder. Later I'll describe another way to use asymmetric bending, in smoothly moving from one chord-note down to a different chord-note and way up to another chord-note; or vice versa with up then down. And of course when playing blues. A musically useful pitch-bend wheel should be similar to a trombone with sliding glissandos, flexibly moving up & down by any amounts.

 

[craigru]

I'm wondering why the basic feature seems to be available only on "premium keyboards" for those who "drop enough coin." Maybe because it's expensive to design & manufacture an electronic Bend Wheel that can change by different amounts for up/down (technically is this a lot more difficult than symmetric bending?) and then to program the interface so users can customize the Wheel? And/or is this mainly due to "just not seriously thinking about it" because keyboard makers don't think the feature will be considered musically valuable by enough potential buyers, so the ratio of benefits/costs isn't high enough to make the feature profitable for the companies?

 

[anotherscott]

You (anotherscott) say "this is actually a very common feature" on workstations, like a Roland Fantom X6 (of RedEyeC)

RedEyeC was describing something different... having the pitch wheel bend different amounts on different sounds, which is something all the boards I mentioned can do as well... but what the Roland does not have is the exact feature you were talking about, being able to have the bend up amount be different from the bend down amount, on the same program. That's what the boards I mentioned can do, that I haven't seen do-able on a Roland.

It's encouraging to know that these features are available, but AFAIK (with my limited knowledge) they aren't included in any budget keyboard, only "premium keyboards" like Kurzweil PC3. As happyrat1 says, "if you drop enough coin on a board it will include this feature along with a zillion others." But it would be useful if a low-priced keyboard (like Casio CT-S300 for $179) had the basic feature (independent maximum-bend adjustments for up-bending and down-bending) that I asked about.

Some of the boards I mentioned are by no means "premium" boards, though they are not $179 budget boards, either, e.g. Korg Kross, or the older Korg Microstation, or the Yamaha MX even if you figured in the cost of the available editor. These are still "entry level" boards in the context of the entire range offered by these manufacturers. But they are entry level "professional" boards, if you will, not so much targeted at total beginners.

I'm wondering why the basic feature seems to be available only on "premium keyboards" for those who "drop enough coin." Maybe because it's expensive to design & manufacture an electronic Bend Wheel that can change by different amounts for up/down (technically is this a lot more difficult than symmetric bending?) and then to program the interface so users can customize the Wheel?

The wheel is no different, it's a matter of programming (i.e. what the board will do in response to certain values). But putting tons of options into low cost models creates a more complicated interface, which is a negative, especially for the beginners who are the biggest market for the lowest priced models. So it is not unreasonable that they focus on the things most often used by the greatest number of users.

 

[happyrat1]

Really when it comes to anything electronic it's all about marketing and "snob appeal." To the engineers it's just another switching matrix with X gobs of ram and DSP.

It honestly wouldn't cost much more to turn a kids' toy into a Kronos.

Aside from the quality of the container the rest of the engineering is software and whatever gimmicks they can sell as "ugrades."

Refrigerators or keyboards. It's all about marketing baffelgab and the upsell of snob appeal.

I watched the keyboard player of a local bar band pound the snot out of a cheap Yamaha P-something student piano last month and between the shitty overloaded house speaker system and the beer and cockroach soaked environment he put on a hell of a show.

He confided in me after the show that it was the bar's board and how he wouldn't dare bring his own gear to that rat hole

As long as you can make it sing on cue, it doesn't matter what you play

 

[Rayblewit]

I love your analogies Gary!
They always make me smile.
You have a quick wit!
"Pounding the snot" . . never tried that.

 

[RedEyeC]

Best pitch bend I've ever played is on my Roland Fantom X6 - four-way toggle joy-stick. Along with the D-Beam, a user can make sounds other keyboards can only imagine. And I've played most all Yamahas, Korgs, Casios, other Rolands, and many more - since my Minimoog and Octave Cat.

 

[craigru]

I was happy to hear (from anotherScott) that "this is actually a very common feature." But not for budget keyboards. I thought "yes" when reading the explanation from Gary, saying "it honestly wouldn't cost much more" to produce this feature, but makers want to offer budget keyboards yet still maintain their ability to sell "upgrades" to those who want extra features and are willing to pay extra money. It reminds me of Apple's pricing for MacBooks, with upgrades of RAM or SSD capacity (and neither can be changed after initial purchase) costing a LOT more than the extra wholesale cost (to Apple) of the bigger RAM or SSD.
And I liked your story about hearing a player "pound the snot out of a [cheap keyboard]," reminding us that playing great music doesn't require a great instrument, just a great musician.

In mid-September I had planned to buy a Casio CT-S300, do some experiments, and give a report. I will buy it but haven't yet, so instead I'll describe (7 weeks later!) a couple of thought experiments, one with symmetric up/down (S300), and another with asymmetric up/down, in addition to the combination (+2, -12) described earlier, that lets you "take control over your pitchblend to play like Stevie Wonder" with "a Stevie Wonder-style Moog synth bassline."
With asymmetry, a continuous pitch-bended arpeggio from E-to-C-thru-E-to-G is possible with -4 and +3, while a C-Chord is playing; then A-F-A-C-A-F-A-F-etc during an F-Chord, and so on. Or if restricted to symmetry (e.g. with S300) use -5/+5 near the end of a C-Chord section (like in the 4th bar of 12-Bar Blues) to bend from G up to C (and maybe repeat?), then (when the F-Chord begins in the 5th bar) bend from C up to F and back down to C, and so on. If they're done artistically, bends like these (with many variations possible) can be musically interesting and beautiful.

 

[craigru]

An example of "artistic bending" is Urbie Green (a high-quality musician playing a low-tech trombone) in "I Gotta Right to Sing the Blues" with a long-and-slow glissando that begins around 0:59, but (so you'll hear the musical context) this link takes you to 0:38.

 

[RedEyeC]

An example of "artistic bending" is Urbie Green (a high-quality musician playing a low-tech trombone) in "I Gotta Right to Sing the Blues" with a long-and-slow glissando that begins around 0:59, but (so you'll hear the musical context) this link takes you to 0:38.

Got to love them Blues Almost surely this bend was added in production - I do it all the time with certain plug-ins on my Cubase.

 

[RedEyeC]

Got to love them Blues This bend could have been added in production - I do it all the time with certain plug-ins on my Cubase. Reason is the program will do a much smoother bend (in any direction, time, steps) than what a trombonist could do with his slide. But - after hearing a few times, the evident dynamics are telling me he indeed did this without any production tricks. Coming from a former trombonist