PSR-433 or YPG-235?

[Joe Garfield]

I am looking for my first keyboard. I play some guitar and finally started taking lessons. I also am taking music theory for personal enjoyment, and to broaden my repertoire, meet musicians, and hopefully get to where I am not limited to who I can jam with. I listen to select live music focused on instrumentals and improvisation. I really like Mozart but not much other classical. Everything else I listen to is electronic or at least has a strong groove component. I used to spin records. I also used to play violin and trumpet and of course the recorder.

And I like nice stuff.

So I did a little research and went to the store to feel the difference between Yamaha and Casio. Yamaha wins. I set out thinking I would end up with the PSR 300 series but I didn't like the sound quality. The 400 series sounds substantially better, but then I tried the YPG. Very different experience. I immediately came to appreciate the different feel of the keyboard, the sound quality, and the extra keys.

The YPG makes me want to sit down and play straight piano. The 76 keys are inviting and the GST action is very organic. I felt inspired to (try to) be dynamic and smooth. The keys feel really light, obviously not weighted but seem even lighter than the PSR keys; almost too light. The sound and action are enough to make me think I could play the thing forever. I did not yet spend that much time with the PSR, as it was hard to leave the YPG.

I tried a digital keyboard to experience the weighted keys. Of course it would be nice to have weighted keys and be strong enough to play a real piano. So I compare the PSR and the YPG to the digital piano. The PSR has stiffer keys - the resistance seems more piano-like, but the action isn't as natural. I feel a better connection with the YPG's GST keys, but the light weight is just a little disappointing.

So today I start watching Youtube videos. The first PSR video blows me away - I love house music - this guy hits a button, turns some knobs, and is making some pretty sick dance music (not the cheesy 'trance style' on the YPG series). The recording capacity is double on the PSR and the connectivity is much better (USB flash, midi, etc). The smaller size is nice but it comes at a price. It also lacks the feature where you can chord with both hands, or something, when split? But it seems to make up for it in many other ways.

The ideal instrument would be the PSR with 76 GST, semi-weighted keys and the piano sound quality of the YPG, and not cost more than $300. My musical tastes seem to point toward the PSR, but I feel that the YPG would inspire something different. It seems more like a musical instrument and less like a computer.

So:
-The feature-rich PSR that could potentially drive me toward electronic music, recording, and backup tracks, or...
-The YPG that would probably inspire me to buy Billy Joel song books and maybe focus a little more on classical and music composition.

How the heck did this get so complicated?!

 

[Joe Garfield]

long story short: which do you think i should get? go for a little better feel geared toward piano, or a few more fwatures geared toward versatility?

 

[happyrat1]

Your problem is the $300 budget. That's simply not enough to get a good 76 or 88 key stage piano with realistic sounds.

If you want to learn how to play piano properly then a weighted, hammer action keyboard is a must. Even there, there's not a hell of a lot out there for under $700.

If you want killer synth sounds, then the PSR is good value for the money, but still a long way from some of the better stuff out there. Or take a look at a Casio WK-6500 or WK-7500.

Or there's option C. Spend over a grand and get the best of both worlds with something like a Kurzweil SP4-7 or the new Korg Kross 88.

Or there's option D. Take a look around on your local Craigslist and see what's selling used in your area. You'll get a whole lot more bang for your buck picking up some good used stage equipment for about 50 cents on the dollar.

Just my $0.02

Gary

 

[Joe Garfield]

Thanks Gary, I think I have been leading to the same conclusion. After my theory class today (in which I played a small tune on the Steinway (upright?) (geez what a nice piano!) I played around in Guitar Center for about an hour this evening, trying more keyboards. The weighted keys are right, there is no doubt about it.

I saw some Williams Allegro stuff - it is affordable, I'm sure you get what you pay for. I have not done the research yet, but I bet I will find it's a brand I don't want to get involved with (nice weighted key digital piano for $299).

I unfortunately don't have a budget beyond $300-400. It was supposed to be $50 for a toy, then $150 to get velocity-sensitive keys, then $250 for better sound quality and GST keys... I'm sure you know how it goes, but right now $300 is what I can afford and any more is a stretch.

I do not like the keys on the PSR, and almost every Casio I've played has a cheap 'loose' feel to the keys, almost like there is a small space between the key and the end of the spring. I hate it. I wish that was not the case, but i have found that in 2-3 different stores on several machines.

I will hold off as long as I can, and if nothing comes up I'll settle for the YPG-235. It is a nice machine and certainly enough to teach me where the notes are.

 

[happyrat1]

I can understand your budget problems Joe. Nobody ever has too much money or is too thin

That's why you should seriously consider option D, craigslist/kijiji/ebay...

For about the same $300 if you shop around you should be able to find a used DGX-640 or DGX-530 or maybe even an older Korg or Roland stage piano or synth.

A lot of people buy a middle range digital piano for their kids and then either the kid gives it up or moves on to a better unit. Either way they end up unloading something that's lightly used for half price or less.

At the very least you owe it to yourself to check out the used market...

Gary

 

[happyrat1]

Just as an example here's a couple of listings from craigslist in my own neighbourhood. There's some really nice vintage synths and pianos selling at and below your $300 budget target. Plus, prices are negotiable & no tax!

http://toronto.en.craigslist.ca/search/sss?query=synth&zoomToPosting=&minAsk=&maxAsk=

http://toronto.en.craigslist.ca/search/sss?query=piano&zoomToPosting=&minAsk=&maxAsk=

 

[happyrat1]

Here's some DGX-640's on Ebay...

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=dgx+620&_osacat=0&_trksid=m570.l3201&_nkw=dgx+640&_sacat=0

 

[Joe Garfield]

I guess I read some negative things about buying used. If you could help me get past that stuff, I would appreciate it! The DGX-640 is almost exactly what I am looking for.

I am concerned primarily with 2 things:
-What if it feels OK to my beginner hands, and I take the unit home and find the action isn't right on some of the keys? (Knowing myself, I will end up wanting to clean and/or refurbish the entire set of keys - is this totally unreasonable?)
-What about life expectancy? I obviously don't get a warranty. How do you approach this with an electronic instrument?

The other idea I came up with is trading in one of my electric guitars. That always seems to be something that is regretted down the road, but I think if it is used to help obtain the right new instrument it will be worth it. I don't really play it and probably wouldn't without spending a few bucks on new electronics and hardware anyway.

 

[happyrat1]

Offhand here's a few tips to buying used.

1) Buy locally. Be sure you are able to physically check it out yourself. No shipping costs either.

2) Be sure you try out everything that the situation allows. Headphone and output jacks. Make sure all the buttons are working. Strike each and every key a few times. Maybe bring along a laptop and a USB AB cable to test out the computer hookup if he doesn't have it already hooked up.

3) Take note of the seller and his environment. If you buy from a slob chances are he may not have taken good care of it.

4) Don't allow yourself to feel pressured or rushed.

5) Bring along a friend who knows keyboards if possible.

6) If the deal falls thru don't feel bad. There's always another deal a week or so in the future.

As for cleaning out the keyboard? If it was well taken care of and kept in a case or under a dustcover it won't need any cleanup.

Offhand with a unit like the DGX-640 or 620 your biggest worry would be whether or not the seller has little kids who mangled the board.

Ideally you'd look for an adult seller/player who bought it for hobby use and is looking to upgrade.

Prices are not carved in stone and as always, caveat emptor.

I'm not saying it's impossible to get ripped off but from my experience most people selling on craigslist are honest enough to tell you if there are any flaws with the keyboard and whether or not it needs professional work up front.

Good luck,

Gary

 

[Joe Garfield]

Thanks! I am awaiting some pics on a DGX 640 - price is a little low at $300 so I don't know what to expect, but I appreciate and will heed all the suggestions.
http://lexington.craigslist.org/msg/4096248341.html

 

[happyrat1]

Sounds like it's worth a look. Either the keyboard has been gigged a lot and may have some cosmetic damage or the guy is simply a veteran of craigslist and posted his rock bottom price for a quick sale.

Either way, don't write it off offhand, check it out thoroughly and ask the right questions in your emails and when you go to check it out.

Gary

 

[happyrat1]

A couple of questions you should ask are how old is it and was it carried around on gigs? Also ask if he has a dustcover or case for it.

 

[Joe Garfield]

Ok, so I talked to him a little via text message and got a few photos. Supposedly he has not played it much. He wants to sell it as he is trying to get money together for buying a house, it is priced to sell and non-negotiable.

One key was 'knocked off' during a move. He sent me a short video to demonstrate - it works, but looks like it is pretty soft and makes a knocking sound. Seems like something that could be fixed? I has a dust cover, stand and bench. Not sure if the dust cover was used or how the machine was stored.

Here's the rub: he is pretty far away. It's posted in C-list of a city about 90min away, but supposedly that's where he works and he lives far from there. He also says he's not comfortable with me coming to his house! Says he could bring it to work, but there is nowhere I would be able to sit and play it.

It is starting not to sound right. I offered to meet at a rest stop or welcome center or something. Buying a $300 keyboard out of the back of a car doesn't sit right with me, but I am very interested in this machine!

 

[happyrat1]

Walk away from it. The price is literally TOO good to be true.

The knocked off key means it was dropped at least once.

From what I've seen on ebay and craigslist a DGX-640 in good condition should run between $400 and $500 these days.

If you're a good negotiator you might get another $25-$45 knocked off of that.

Be patient and wait for another deal.

This one sounds way too dodgy. Be patient and a good one will come along soon enough.

Gary

 

[happyrat1]

BTW, a proper repair job on that wonky key would cost about $150 in an authorized repair shop.

Better to just walk away and wait for the next deal. Realistically you should end up paying $425 to $450 for a used DGX 640 in good or great shape.

Gary

 

[happyrat1]

One other thing. If they won't give you a proper home address to meet at and want to meet in some back alley screw em. You need at least a proper phone number and address to identify the guy just in case it ends up being stolen property or some such crap.

You have to be able to cover your ass if the sh*t hits the fan.

Most regular sellers will have no problem with you coming to their homes to properly inspect the merchandise.

 

[happyrat1]

Also before you buy anything, check to make sure the serial numbers are all intact and not scratched off. Otherwise if you ever have to bring it in for repair you're screwed.

 

[Joe Garfield]

Thanks Gary, I was starting to come to that conclusion as well.

 

[vbdx66]

Hello Joe, there actually is one product that might bring you the best of both worlds, it is the Yamaha Piaggero NP80. "Piaggero" stands for "Piano" and "Leggiero". Is is meant by Yamahah as a very light and portable "piano" (although it is far off from a real piano, or even a Clavinova or a DGX). Actually, it is an inexpensive arranger keyboard (but by no means a toy) like the PSR E433 and its predecessors E403, 413 and 423. It has more or less the same system, voices and styles as the PSR E4xx series, with a few differences. Since it is meant as a portable piano and not as an arranger keyboard, it has 76 keys instead of 61. It has a bit less "modern" Dance styles and a bit more Pianist styles. It has the Live! piano sounds of better boards (it is a bit better than the "standard" Grand Piano sound of the E433, but IMHO only a specialist will hear the difference). It does has a connector for an USB stick, like the E433. Be aware of the fact, though, that you will only be able to upload ONE user style at a time in the internal memory of the keyboard and use it for chord accompaniment - but at least, you'll have the possibility to upload one specific style for a particular song if you don't find a suitable style on board. All the SFF 1 styles smaller than 40 KB should work (the limit is of 50 KB on the PSR E433). I don't know why, but I tried both keyboard and the Sweet! Tenor Sax is incredible on the NVP 80 - not clue why. Also, there is a Sweet! clarinet that you don't have on the NVP 80 - if you plan to use a lot of clarinet, e. g. for old fashioned Jazz music, the saxophone and clarinet might be point to be taken into consideration.

I have hesitated a long time between both keyboards and I have tried them both at a local music store. If you really want to play a lot of piano music, go for the NVP 80, it has a few very nice acoustic and electric piano voices and it is about the only portable arranger keyboard on the market with 76 keys at about 300 euros( don't know how much it'll make in USD but you can easily convert the sus yourself).
If you are more into dance music, go for the PSR E433. It has more Dance styles, as well as the possibility to upload five user styles at a time. The DJ pattern are more of a gadget, since there are only 10 of them and you will quickly get tired with them. BUT you can add more flexibility to the styles (both internal and user styles) since you can mute any of the style tracks, e. g. to suppress the drums or the bass, or the rhythmic guitar or whatever you want. It will make the accompanying "orchestra" sound more real and more lively. Nice if you want to arrange a Mozart minuet for instance, because you don't want to have any drums or bass then.

As for the Casio's, I have considered them, too, but have discarded them, because the reviews weren't always positive and I was less than convinced by the YouTube demo's. Also, Yamaha is renowned for very reliable instruments - if you buy one of their keyboards, even en entry-level one, you might well still be using it in 20 years time (although you'll probably have bought a more sophisticated instrument by then).

Also, I like very much the overall sound of the Yamaha's when I tried them at the music store. I like very much the feeling of the PSR E433's keybed, although I was used to play on a real piano before buying it. I find it very responsive, you can put a lot of variation into the sound if you play strings or wood instruments, for instance.

My final advice: go to the local music store and try both keyboards (and also the Casio's if you really want to hear them for yourself). It is really important to TRY these keyboards, since it might radically change the meaning you had from the advice of other users and from the YouTube demos. For instance, before going to the local shop, I wanted to order the NVP 80, but after I had tried both boards, I finally opted for the PSR E433 and after three months, I am still very happy of my choice. Also, here, there is the possibility to send the keyboard back for refund if after a week (or a month in certain cases) it doesn't answer your expectations.

Hope this helps,

Feel free to ask further questions if you need,

Regards and good luck with your choice,

Vinciane

 

[Joe Garfield]

Thank you, Vinciane. Since starting this thread I have begun looking at the Piagerro series. I have made a spreadsheet with the PSR, the YPG, and the NP-V series keyboards. The YPG-235 seems to have nearly identical functionality to the NP-V60. I am not sure what the actual differences are, other than footprint and I believe the updated Piano sounds on the Piagerro. I will try to get in to the stores today to feel the keyboard.

The weighted key Casios feel really nice but obviously they are on the more expensive side. I dislike the keys on their workstations/arrangers.

Last night I spent some time thinking about my favorite bands and keyboard players, and realized each one has multiple keyboards and a piano (when possible) on stage. So there is no 1 keyboard that will fill every need perfectly. Maybe the answer for me is to get a nice arranger that I can afford now, and if playing the keys becomes a real passion I can save and invest in a digital piano. This approach works too as I am starting to fall behind in class and need to get something this week.

For now my goals are to learn keys, notes, and chords. I would like to do this by having the auto accompaniment, and I would like the ability to play at least some dance tracks.

It is unfortunate the units I'm looking at don't have a real loop function