Which Kurzweil and suggest a stand for me

[Geherys]

Hi, I'm a complete beginner to both keyboards and to musical instruments in general. I'm 43 and I've dreamed of playing keyboards since I was a little kid-- I'm finally in a position where I can afford a good keyboard, I have a good place in my new house to put it, and all the YouTube and other internet resources means I can learn by myself, at my own pace, before or instead of committing to regular lessons.

I do, though, have some particular challenges going into this. I have hypermobility syndrome, cerebral palsy, arthritis, and fibromyalgia. That means that I can (and do) dislocate joints very easily and because I'm so flexible, stress joints past what they should be doing without knowing I'm doing it (until the next day, when they can barely move). The CP adds a degree of spasticity and wonky balance, the arthritis is self-explanatory, and fibro means that if it's a part of my body remotely capable of being in pain, it'll be in pain from the mildest things. Because of this, I definitely want to avoid fully-weighted keys because I think they'd quickly start to hurt to play them. I don't know, though, if semi-weighted would be good or bad for me. And I do have a related stand concern.

I've zeroed in on the Kurzweil PC3LE series, but can't decide between the 6 and the 7. Any feedback would be helpful. My skill level is zero (absolute beginner) and as for what I want to do with it... pretty much everything. I'd like to learn it as a piano, I want to learn to play some of the sounds I grew up with and loved so much (especially anything Genesis and '80s synth pop), and I want to learn to make my own sounds. I want an instrument that will last me years and years, and still be capable of new things I've never tried. Above all I want it to *sound good*, because that will keep me coming back. (I tried a couple of Korg models in Guitar Store, didn't like the sound nearly as well. Did like the sound of the Yamaha MOX-6, which has the advantage of being cheaper, but couldn't understand any of the buttons-- at least I could make some intuitive sense of the Kurzweil ones.) Not overly interested in classical music.

As for a stand, I need something *really stable* because I have three cats and there's no way to keep them out of that room. Those standard x-shaped models seem really tippy, all I can imagine is my 12 pound cat deciding it would be great fun to leap from the sofa to the keyboard (since they'll be in the same space) and the whole thing tumbling over sending my new $1500 keyboard crashing to the floor. I need something less flimsy! I'd also love it if the stand is able to hold the keyboard in an angled position. Yes, I've read/watched things on proper posture, and I will certainly try it to the best of my ability. But I also know that my angled drafting table has been a godsend for doing anything with my hands at all: crafts hurt less, I even put my laptop on it sometimes and that's less painful too. I'd at least like the option if the proper method gives me a lot of pain.

All thoughts and suggestions welcome!

 

[Oyst3h]

80's synth pop is a good place to start - a lot of the guys playing it were complete beginners too. Genesis not so much...

X stands are light and not portable, but not so stable as other options. The "table" style stands like the K&M 18953 are probably the most stable, but also the most expensive.

 

[delaware dave]

Hi, I'm a complete beginner to both keyboards and to musical instruments in general.

VAST is difficult to grasp, hardly a place for a beginner to start. Personally I'd start with a keyboard that is much easier to program AND a keyboard that retains market value. This way you can start to understand how a professional keyboard works by starting with one that is simpler to operate and program. Once you "get it" you can then evaluate whether you want to keep the keyboard or move onto something more challenging. If the latter, then having purchased a keyboard that retains market value will be much easier to unload and get your money back so that you can move onto a more challenging keyboard like a Kurzweil. From a mathematical perspective; VAST is like calculus; when you learn math you don't start with calculus, you start with something more basic like algebra, then you move to calculus. Look for something like a Nord Electro 3 where they have a huge library of sounds:

http://www.nordkeyboards.com/main.asp?tm=Sound Libraries&cllibr=Nord_Sample_Library

Programming the NE3 is pretty easy. Personally I'd start there, download their entire library of sounds (for free), tweak the easy interface, experiment, etc.. If you decide later this keyboard doesn't do it for you, unloading it is quite easy as the keyboard retains its market value. As a comparison, the Kurzweil PC3's user manual is 418 pages, the Nord Electro 3's is 27 pages. Nearly 400 pages of complexity you don't need to start with as a beginner. Don't like the samples from the Nord library, the Sample Wave editor in the NE3 allows you to load your own samples. Pretty flexible, yet simple.

 

[happyrat1]

For a stand I highly recommend an Onstage Z Stand.

http://www.amazon.com/Stage-KS7350-...id=1373915736&sr=8-1&keywords=onstage+z+stand

I have the two tier version and it's solid as a brick outhouse.

As for the Kurzweil, I just picked myself up a PC3K8 and I'm hopelessly in love with it.

While Dave is right about VAST being complicated to program, I disagree that the board would be too much for a beginner.

Even if all that you want to do is select programs and play the control layout is clean and simple and logically laid out. All your pianos and organs and clavs, etc... are grouped together and accessible with single button pushes from 8 quick select buttons.

I had a Korg TR76 for years before this and found the Korg way of laying out the menus and controls to be arcane and byzantine in structure.

Like yourself, I loved keys growing up but didn't have the cash or time until late in life to indulge my Keith Emerson fantasies

I'd say it's a wise decision to spend the extra few hundred or thou to get the board you REALLY want right from the beginning so that you can learn the proper way to do things right from the get go.

Sometimes selling off an old keyboard to buy what you really want can be tougher than getting rid of herpes and you always take a big hit on used keyboards because prices are always dropping and technology is always improving.

Go with a 61 key Kurz and I think you'll be very happy. Given your mobility limitations I think you'll end up doing most of your work on the computer anyway and you'll really only be using the keyboard as a sound module and partial input device.

Gary

 

[Geherys]

80's synth pop is a good place to start - a lot of the guys playing it were complete beginners too. Genesis not so much....

Yeah, I know I'm setting a high bar with anything from Genesis. The good thing about a hobby, though, is that it's not a race. I have the rest of my life to try to work up to the things I want to do.

VAST is difficult to grasp, hardly a place for a beginner to start. Personally I'd start with a keyboard that is much easier to program AND a keyboard that retains market value. This way you can start to understand how a professional keyboard works by starting with one that is simpler to operate and program. Once you "get it" you can then evaluate whether you want to keep the keyboard or move onto something more challenging.

Thanks for the feedback, I will look into finding out more about VAST and how challenging it is to pick up. I'm particularly interested in whether there are good tutorials out there for it, and a good support community-- I've found both to be key when it comes to picking up difficult-to-learn software. I will also look into the Nord Electro. I was interested in the Nord line, but the stores near me didn't have anything that I could try. Sound is really the most important thing to me right now, though. I think it'll be a goodly amount of time before I go near the programming end, and if the board doesn't sound good, I won't want to practice and learn. I was recommended to try different Korg models to start with, and I did futz around with them in the store but I just don't like the sound and didn't like the sound in any of the review videos either. I mentioned that to an employee at the Guitar Store, and he said "yeah, people don't buy them for the sound". (Which leaves me wondering what you *would* buy a musical instrument for, if not the sound. Programming, I guess?)

For a stand I highly recommend an Onstage Z Stand.

http://www.amazon.com/Stage-KS7350-Heavy-Folding-Keyboard/dp/B000LCRP14/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1373915736&sr=8-1&keywords=onstage z stand

I have the two tier version and it's solid as a brick outhouse.

Awesome, that was the one I was looking at already and thinking it would be way more stable than the x-shaped ones. Looks like the main support doesn't angle, though. Hoping that won't be an issue and I can play it like I'm supposed to.

While Dave is right about VAST being complicated to program, I disagree that the board would be too much for a beginner.

Even if all that you want to do is select programs and play the control layout is clean and simple and logically laid out. All your pianos and organs and clavs, etc... are grouped together and accessible with single button pushes from 8 quick select buttons.

I had a Korg TR76 for years before this and found the Korg way of laying out the menus and controls to be arcane and byzantine in structure.

Like yourself, I loved keys growing up but didn't have the cash or time until late in life to indulge my Keith Emerson fantasies

I'd say it's a wise decision to spend the extra few hundred or thou to get the board you REALLY want right from the beginning so that you can learn the proper way to do things right from the get go.

You think like I do. I don't really want to start with something that doesn't sound great and then work up, I'd rather just get what I want and spend the next 20 years messing with it. I don't know if the analogy works, but when I got interested in web graphics some time ago I was steered toward cheap, easy photo-editing programs. I went right for the full edition of Photoshop 5.5. I still use it now (about to upgrade, since Adobe is offering it for free). I probably do a lot of things in it the wrong way, but it's been *so much fun* noodling around in it exploring all it can do, trying out tutorials, and knowing that I could use it for another 10 years and still be finding new things in it I've never tried. I'm glad I ignored that advice. I don't know about VAST, though-- it could go the way Photoshop went for me, or it could stymie me completely. But I don't see myself getting into the programming end until I've really learned to play, and the Kurzweil seems awesome for that. I also agree SO MUCH about the layout! I didn't understand everything in the store, but I did find some of the presets to be intuitive enough that even a clueless beginner can follow it. The same wasn't true with either the Korg I looked at (don't recall the model) or the Yamaha MOX-6. The latter was like a cockpit, and I'm staring at it trying to figure out how *anything* works! Whereas with the Kurzweil, my husband tells me I had a giant grin on my face while fiddling with it, and when closing time came I really didn't want to walk away. I think that's a pretty important indicator that it clicked with me.

Go with a 61 key Kurz and I think you'll be very happy. Given your mobility limitations I think you'll end up doing most of your work on the computer anyway and you'll really only be using the keyboard as a sound module and partial input device.

You think the 61 key will be ok, and I won't need the slightly bigger one? That's my biggest decision right now, between the 6 and the 7. What's affected by the fewer keys? I've been told I don't need a full 88 unless I want to get heavy into classical, which I don't. But what's the difference between the 61 key and the 76 key one, in terms of what it can/can't play?

 

[happyrat1]

Well the 76 key can play an extra octave and a third higher in range without resorting to an octave shift button. Then again I am not certain you would need it unless you start playing complicated counterpoints and massive arpeggios in real time.

The way you described your mobility issues I got the impression that you would be playing snippets and leads and basslines separately into a sequencer software and assembling your musical creations on the computer.

Also I believe the 76 keys are semi weighted while the 61 key models are synth action, meaning a lighter and quicker touch.

Honestly I don't think you could go wrong with either model, but you should visit another music shop and try out the difference between semi weighted and synth action keys on even another manufacturer's brand just to get a feel for the difference.

 

[Geherys]

Well the 76 key can play an extra octave and a third higher in range without resorting to an octave shift button. Then again I am not certain you would need it unless you start playing complicated counterpoints and massive arpeggios in real time.

The way you described your mobility issues I got the impression that you would be playing snippets and leads and basslines separately into a sequencer software and assembling your musical creations on the computer.

Also I believe the 76 keys are semi weighted while the 61 key models are synth action, meaning a lighter and quicker touch.

Honestly I don't think you could go wrong with either model, but you should visit another music shop and try out the difference between semi weighted and synth action keys on even another manufacturer's brand just to get a feel for the difference.

My fault for being unclear, then. No, primarily I want it as an instrument in and of itself. Yes, I would like to work my way into actual synthesis at some point too, but I think that's going to take time and I want to understand how to actually play full songs first. So I expect to be spending a lot of time actually playing, in real time.

That's why I was hoping to find a stand that could adjust the angle of the keyboard-- even though it isn't proper playing posture, it *may* become necessary because of pain-related issues. I've found that straight desks and I don't get on very well for any task. I can use them, but they hurt. Any kind of hand work that takes time, I tend to do either on my lap or on a down-angled table. I don't really know if playing a keyboard is going to hit the same issues as using a desktop computer (my doctor actually begged me to stop working on a desktop because it caused so many issues), but it wouldn't surprise me if it did.

Not sure if testing the synth action vs. semi-weighted in a store will help, since if the weighted does bother me, it won't do it right away. I'll try, though. My biggest question with that: will fewer keys affect what I can play, given that I'm mainly interested in rock, pop, and EDM. I don't see me playing much classical music. If I can do it well with 61, well, it's certainly cheaper. If, otoh, I find that it limits too much what songs I can play in the genres I actually like, I'd rather just spring for the LE7 now.

 

[happyrat1]

If that's the case and you wish to be able to play a full range of songs, then definitely go with the 76 key model. That will give you the range to play just about anything except some heavy duty classical stuff.

As for the posture and positioning of the stand, the Onstage Z stand does not adjust in angle, however it has a very flexible height adjustment range with 5 stops in between.

I don't really foresee any issues with positioning the keyboard for comfort with that stand.

It does sound to me though, that you are heading for a world of pain in the future when it comes to practicing and playing keyboards, any sort of keyboards. Even I have to deal with occasional twinges of arthritis and carpal tunnel at my age and don't find myself playing and practicing nearly as often as I should.

One thing that might help your posture with the kurzweil is one of those kneeling type back chairs where you actually lean a bit forward while sitting. Between that and the adjustable height of the Z stand I'd think you might find an optimum playing posture for your situation.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=azs_osd_moz?tag=amznsearch.moz-20&link_code=qs&index=aps&field-keywords=kneeling chair

It might be a problem using pedals though.

Gary

 

[happyrat1]

BTW, you mentioned wanting to scope out some tutorials on programming VAST.

Kurzweil has an excellent series on programming the PC3 line on Youtube.

Go thru those and you may find you won't even need a manual

 

[Geherys]

That video is great, that's exactly the kind of thing I'd be looking for. It's so much easier to learn while doing & watching someone else do than reading a manual-- for me, anyway. The board will be in a den with a TV that can run YouTube vids, so I can watch lessons and practice right there.

Ack, to the kneeling chair. I have no idea how people can stand to sit in those things! I have a great adjustable chair, upholstered it myself, that should work well. Honestly, hand pain isn't *usually* my issue-- sometimes, if I'm doing a ton of hand-sewing or something, but not often. It's more neck/shoulder pain from the angle of doing anything on a straight desk. When I was regularly gaming on a desktop, I'd get shoulder pain that would spike straight down my arm and sometimes leave it half-numb for days; same thing for working with a desktop. I learned it was all about angles. Get the right angle, and I'd be okay. That's why a stand with an adjustable angle might be a real help. I did find this: http://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-m...-keyboard-stand-where-both-levels-angled.html Can't tell if the height is adjustable so it may be too high if you're not standing. If I didn't need my angled table elsewhere, I'd just put it right on there and futz with it till I got the perfect setting. (That might be the answer... seeing what I can find that *isn't* purpose-built for a keyboard, but can be adjusted in both height and angle and hold the weight.)

 

[happyrat1]

There's 17 more videos in the series. Just click on the YouTube logo in the embedded video to link back to the original page or do a youtube search on "Kurzweil PC3 Tutorial" and it will bring you directly to the entire set. It's a tutorial DVD broken up into 18 segments and posted on Youtube.

As for the Keyboard stand, not only does that A frame look not to be height adjustable, but also it looks like if the clamps are not fully tightened you could have a very expensive accident. A 76 key Kurzweil is definitely NOT a lightweight.

Perhaps you might do better buying an adjustable drafting table to hold the keyboard.

Here's a few ideas from Amazon. They don't really seem to cost any more than a decent stand.

http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&field-keywords=adjustable drafting table&index=blended&link_code=qs&sourceid=Mozilla-search&tag=wwwcanoniccom-20

Or if you have anyone among your immediate friends and family who is handy with woodworking, perhaps you should consider custom building a stand to your exact specifications. It would cost less than $80 in materials, basically a few 2 x 4's, maybe a small square of plywood and some brackets and fittings and a nice stain or paint job to finish it off.

Just spitballin' here,

Gary

 

[Geherys]

Gary, you're absolutely right. Like I said, it was starting to get tempting to just haul my drafting table down and use it, if I didn't need it for other things. So I took your advice and got another wooden drafting table like the one I've already got. It wasn't that much more than the z-stand, and it's worth it for not only the adjustability but the stability too-- they're big suckers, though, that's the only downside.

Just ordered both it and my keyboard! Very exciting!! I think it'll be worth the 30+ year wait.

In terms of other accessories, what do I need right away? I'm assuming it needs some speakers or an amp. And a good pair of headphones-- something I definitely would rather buy local, even if Amazon is probably cheaper. Happy to hear recommendations if you've had some you liked. I had a wonderful Sennheiser set a few years ago but the wire on one side got loose and lost the sound. I think this time I'll either buy a cheaper pair or find something more durable.

BTW, there's also a guy who teaches music theory who put his whole course in small lessons on YouTube. Lots of great resources on there.

 

[happyrat1]

Here's what I'm using for speakers with my own home studio.

http://www.amazon.com/M-Audio-Activ..._1?ie=UTF8&qid=1374209662&sr=8-1&keywords=bx5

And you'll need two switch pedals and a continuous controller pedal or expression pedal.

I have these on backorder right now and am anxiously awaiting their arrival.

You'll need two of these.

http://www.amazon.com/M-Audio-Susta...1?ie=UTF8&qid=1374209825&sr=8-1&keywords=SP-2

(Actually it ships with one sustain pedal already so you'll actually only need one more switch pedal)

And one of these.

http://www.amazon.com/Moog-Music-EP...2?ie=UTF8&qid=1374209789&sr=8-2&keywords=EP-2

You'll also need some cables.

You'll need a pair of 1/4" mono cables to connect to the monitors.

http://www.amazon.com/Hosa-Cable-GT...6&sr=1-2&keywords=10+ft+1/4"+instrument+cable

And you'll need a USB AB cable ( the one it ships with is too short) if you want to hook up to your computer.

http://www.amazon.com/Belkin-Hi-Spe...1374210392&sr=8-1&keywords=USB+AB+cable+10+ft

And if you want to record your masterpieces onto your computer you should look into getting a mixer and or some appropriate cables for plugging into your computer soundcard.

Either use this cable plugged in directly to your computer from the auxillary outputs to the blue jack on your computer soundcard.

http://www.amazon.com/Hosa-CMP159-S...7&sr=1-3&keywords=10+ft+1/4"+instrument+cable

Or else pick up a mixer and route everything thru that to both your computer and the monitors as well as adding stuff like other keyboards or other band instruments and microphones once you start to get more ambitious.

Anyway, for now, all you really need are the pedals and the cables to get you up and running.

Have a blast

Gary

 

[happyrat1]

I just double checked the PC3LE7 outputs. Looks like they cheaped out on the jacks a bit. There's no auxillary output jacks.

So you'll either have to unplug the speakers to feed thru to your computer or else get a cheap mixer for a "set and forget" sort of setup.

For the time being though, plugging and unplugging cables is your cheapest and easiest option.

 

[happyrat1]

BTW, just in case the front lip on your drafting table isn't too solid or high enough, you might want to install a couple of 1-1/2" or 2" angle brackets under the front lip of the table just to keep the keyboard from sliding off the front of the table.

Here's an Amazon link for illustration purposes but it's probably a lot simpler to pick them up at home depot or ace hardware.

http://www.amazon.com/Amico-Metal-C...d=1374279298&sr=1-5&keywords=2"+angle+bracket