Changing Banks – Live Play


Joined
Oct 15, 2015
Messages
51
Reaction score
1
For live play, I am using -
Controller: Roland A-49
Module: Ketron SD2

The controller is powered from my phone charger. It's MIDI Out goes to my module. Pressing FUNCTION, PRGM CHANGE on the controller allows me to use its NUMERIC ENTRY keys to select a patch from the GM bank. The module offers banks: 0, 1, 2, 10, & 67, but I've had no luck in changing banks. I've tried FUNCTION, CTRL CHANGE, followed by entering many combinations of the above numbers. At one point, I happened to enter bank 2, but am unable to find that door again.
 

happyrat1

Destroyer of Eardrums!!!
Joined
May 30, 2012
Messages
7,891
Reaction score
3,324
Location
GTA, Canada
Check to see what Bank Select controller method the Ketron uses. It will be either Normal, Controller 0 or Controller 32.

You'll have to configure the Roland to use the same Bank Select Method.

Gary ;)
 
Ad

Advertisements

Joined
Oct 15, 2015
Messages
51
Reaction score
1
The Ketron manual does not use those terms. I found here, this statement: Bank select on the SD2 uses CC0, but not CC32.
Ketron groups the banks:

VOICE BANK A (Control Change 00, Value = 0)
VOICE BANK B (Control Change 00, Value = 1)
VOICE BANK C (Control Change 00, Value = 10)
PRESETS BANK (Control Change 00, Value = 2)
DRUM SETS LIVE DRUMS (Drums 2) (Control Change 00, Value = 4)

The Roland controller has Function keys for CTRL CHANGE, BANK SELECT LSB or MSB, and PRGM CHANGE, as well as the NUMERIC ENTRY keys. What combination of these need pressed in which order is the question. Somebody surely knows if they've not died.
 

happyrat1

Destroyer of Eardrums!!!
Joined
May 30, 2012
Messages
7,891
Reaction score
3,324
Location
GTA, Canada
OK, so going by what you've written:

VOICE BANK A: set the Roland CTRL Change 0 Bank Select MSB 0 LSB 0

VOICE BANK B: set the Roland CTRL Change 0 Bank Select MSB 0 LSB 1

VOICE BANK C: set the Roland CTRL Change 0 Bank Select MSB 0 LSB 10

PRESETS BANK: set the Roland CTRL Change 0 Bank Select MSB 0 LSB 2

DRUM SETS : set the Roland CTRL Change 0 Bank Select MSB 0 LSB 4

That should do it.

Gary ;)
 
Joined
Oct 15, 2015
Messages
51
Reaction score
1
Thanks, Gary. Unfortunately, General MIDI is all I'm getting regardless of function commands.
 
Joined
Oct 15, 2015
Messages
51
Reaction score
1
I seem to have found the path, so I will share it.

Ketron SD2 live from a Roland A-49 – Selecting Banks
Notes: The Roland can be powered from a phone charger. Hold the Function, Assign, and Pitch buttons while plugging the unit in to the power supply. Although only the FUNCTION button is an actual button, I will refer to the designated keyboard keys such as F# as buttons as well since they function as buttons. To make sure you’re on track, using the Roland, do a factory reset: FUNCTION > FACT RESET (D#3) > ENTER (D4). Conversely, simply powering up the SD2 reboots it to factory reset - General MIDI.

Selecting a Bank
1. Press in order these 4 buttons:
FUNCTION > CTRL CHANGE > 0 > ENTER.
This tells Ketron that you’re about to send a control change of some kind. Thankfully, the system will stay in Control Change mode, so other bank changes during performance can skip this step. Powering off the SD2, however, reverts back to General MIDI.

2. Press in order these 3 or 4 buttons:
FUNCTION > MSB > which ever 2 or 3 digits you want from the list below > ENTER

00 = Ketron Bank 0 = GENERAL MIDI = factory reset
01 = Ketron Bank 1. Offers great guitars and strings
02 = Ketron Bank 2. Offers a good Hawaiian (steel) guitar and other nice guitars
010 = Ketron Bank 10. Offers many good sax and trumpet patches.

In other words, for Bank 2, press: FUNCTION, MSB, 02, ENTER.
 
Joined
Oct 15, 2015
Messages
51
Reaction score
1
Correction:
Banks 0, 1, and 2, require only the single digit entry. Only bank 10 requires two digits.
 

SeaGtGruff

I meant to play that note!
Moderator
Joined
Jun 6, 2014
Messages
2,514
Reaction score
1,036
Is it okay to enter them with two digits anyway, or must they be entered as one-digit values?
 
Joined
Oct 15, 2015
Messages
51
Reaction score
1
It is okay. In fact, even if you press 0 multiple times, it is ignored. And this is true for Bank 10 as well. Pressing 000010 will still get Bank 10.

Also, switching banks does not change the program number to some default program. If I'm hearing Bank 1, Program 30, and enter Bank 0, the sound is still number 30 of the new bank.

Since the Ketron has no screen, I will stay within banks when possible so that I can select programs with fewer buttons.
 

SeaGtGruff

I meant to play that note!
Moderator
Joined
Jun 6, 2014
Messages
2,514
Reaction score
1,036
I was about to say “The Ketron has no screen?!?!?” but then I realized it’s a sound module, not a keyboard. :):)

My entry-level Yamahas behave the same way, except maybe the part about all those extra 0s being ignored, but that might depend on the situation. In most cases it’s actually quicker to enter any leading 0s on my Yammies, as entering fewer digits than a field can hold may result in the keyboard waiting a second to see if you’re going to enter any more digits, then if no more digits are entered it will accept the value that you input; whereas if you enter the expected number of digits for a field the value is accepted as soon as you enter the final digit.

Edit: The part about switching banks without specifying a new program is also different. I think it’s fairly common on keyboards (well, on Yamahas anyway) that if you specify a new bank number but no program number then nothing will change, because the bank won’t actually change until you specify a program (even if it’s just the same program number as before). On the other hand, specifying a new program number without a bank number will switch programs in the current bank. For that reason, on keyboards that behave that way, you need to always specify the bank first followed by the program, because if you specify the program first you’ll get that program in the old bank since the keyboard won’t switch banks when it receives the new bank change request— until the next program change request.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Oct 15, 2015
Messages
51
Reaction score
1
In the beginning, MIDI created Heaven and Earth. It was the mid 80's. My first two boards were so easy to use. That second one - the Roland D-20 - was the Holy Spirit. I could invent a multi-track recording on the fly while my classroom of kids took in the marvels. Then came evil Complexities. Somebody apparently ate the forbidden fruit.
 
Joined
Oct 15, 2015
Messages
51
Reaction score
1
I'm using my Roland controller to select banks/patches, but it's tedious and prone to errors. Is there a mid-way device which will select banks and patches? I suppose I could add a laptop loaded with Cakewalk, in which case I'd insert as many tracks as changes I need to make, and simply scroll down through them in concert order.
 

SeaGtGruff

I meant to play that note!
Moderator
Joined
Jun 6, 2014
Messages
2,514
Reaction score
1,036
If you have a mobile device (smart phone or tablet), there are apps that can be used to send MIDI messages such as patch change requests.

If you’re looking for a non-computer hardware-only solution, I know that there are some devices that look a bit like a pocket calculator which can be programmed to send patch change information with the simple press of a button, although I have no personal experience with them and the last time I checked they were rather pricey:


Or, if you use a laptop or desktop computer, there are some DAWs (Ableton Live, Acoustica Mixcraft, and Bitwig) which let you create a grid of MIDI clips (loops) that you can trigger using a “launchpad” type of controller, and you can set up the clips to send patch changes and other things (such as loops for filter sweeps). And of course just about any DAW can be set up with tracks for doing that— it’s just that being able to define a series of “scenes” for each track, arranged in a grid, and launching them with a grid controller, can be more convenient.
 
Joined
Oct 15, 2015
Messages
51
Reaction score
1
I've made some purchases. Please open the attached to see if you have specific suggestions.
 

Attachments

SeaGtGruff

I meant to play that note!
Moderator
Joined
Jun 6, 2014
Messages
2,514
Reaction score
1,036
First, let's summarize the connections available on each device (the ones for MIDI data, since you aren't asking about audio):

Roland A-49 -- MIDI OUT port, USB TYPE B port
Ketron SD2 -- MIDI IN port, MIDI THRU port
iPad 5 -- Lightning port, Bluetooth, Wi-Fi

Given that the A-49 and SD2 both have MIDI ports, and you are (I think?) wanting a solution for a live performance setup and therefore probably want to keep things as hassle-free and failure-free as possible, my recommendation for the box with the question marks would be something like the MIDI Solutions Merger:
I'd think that would be the most hassle-free and failure-free merger option out there.

That would mean using three MIDI cables:
  • A-49 MIDI OUT port -- to MIDI cable 1 -- to Merger MIDI IN1 port
  • iPad 5 -- to MIDI cable 2 -- to Merger MIDI IN2 port
  • Merger MIDI OUT1 port -- to MIDI cable 3 -- to SD2 MIDI IN port

For the connection that goes from the iPad 5 to the MIDI Solutions Merger, my recommendation would be something like the IK Multimedia iRig MIDI 2:

So that would give the following setup configuration:
  • A-49 MIDI OUT port -- to MIDI cable 1 -- to Merger MIDI IN1 port
  • iPad Lightning port -- to Lightning cable (included with iRig) -- to iRig mini-DIN port
  • iRig MIDI OUT port -- to MIDI cable 2 -- to Merger MIDI IN2 port
  • Merger MIDI OUT1 port -- to MIDI cable 3 -- to SD2 MIDI IN port

There are other possibilities, such as using something like an iConnectivity interface; I'm not certain, but I think the mio2 might be adequate for this:
Since the mio2 has two pairs of MIDI IN/OUT ports and has the ability to merge MIDI data streams, this could potentially take the place of the iRig and Merger combined. Then the only thing to resolve would be connecting the iPad to the mio2 using the Camera Connection Kit.

However, I've seen posts and reviews from people who talked about how their iConnectivity interface rebooted itself in the middle of a performance, and that's something you definitely wouldn't want to go through-- but I have no personal experience with any iConnectivity interfaces, so I can neither confirm nor deny those "horror stories."

As far as removing as many places where something "computer-ish" could fail on you, a lo-tech hardware-only solution is about as failure-free as you can get, so that's why I'd probably recommend something like the MIDI Solutions Merger plus the iRig MIDI 2.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Oct 15, 2015
Messages
51
Reaction score
1
Thank you for all the thought and time writing. Your assumption is correct – I want hassle-free live performance. You are suggesting two boxes – the Merger and the iRIG MIDI 2. That is puzzling because the Lightening cable appears to end with a USB slot just like computers, so why would my USB-TO-MIDI Converter cable not connect to that slot, then deliver the data to the Merger? That cable - which looks like a skinny two-headed snake that swallowed a frog - as I was saying, that cable delivers notes and patch numbers to my Ketron safe and sound and they say it was a good ride.
 

SeaGtGruff

I meant to play that note!
Moderator
Joined
Jun 6, 2014
Messages
2,514
Reaction score
1,036
There are different types of USB connectors. A typical USB cable has two types of connectors, one on each end.

USB Type-A connectors have a flattened rectangular shape. This is the end of the cable that plugs into a USB port on a computer. The end of a USB flash drive ("thumb drive") has a USB Type-A connector as well.

USB Type-B connectors have more of a squarish shape, except that two of the four corners are beveled. This is the end of the cable that plugs into a peripheral USB device, such as a USB printer.

Each type of connector has a male and a female version. I'm referring to the female connector as a "port," and I've been referring to the male connector above as just a "connector."

Whatever you call it, if you have keyboards or synths that have USB ports, either in addition to or instead of MIDI DIN ports, you might notice that some keyboards have both a USB Type-A port and a USB Type-B port. The Type-A port is for plugging a USB flash drive into the keyboard. The Type-B port is for using a USB cable to connect the keyboard to a computer-- the squarish Type-B end of the cable goes to the keyboard, and the flattened Type-A end of the cable goes to the computer.

If you want to connect a keyboard to an iPad, you still have to do the same thing-- plug the squarish Type-B end of the cable into the keyboard, and plug the flattened Type-A end of the cable into the iPad-- except, wait a minute, Apple (in their infinite wisdom, or maybe it's just supreme arrogance) have chosen not to equip the iPad with an industry standard port, and have instead equipped it with a proprietary type of port so that you must purchase special adapter cables, and every so often they change to a different type of proprietary port so that you have to purchase a whole new set of special adapter cables.

So let's look at that cable you've got. One end is a Lightning connector, which goes into the Lightning port of your iPad 5. The other end is a USB Type-A connector, which goes into a computer-- or it can also go into a USB power adapter for charging the iPad; but it can't go into a keyboard unless you plug it into the Type-A port (that is, if the keyboard has one of those), and that port is for loading files from or saving files to a flash drive, not for streaming MIDI data between the keyboard and a computer.

That's why you need to use a Camera Connection Kit to connect a keyboard to an iPad; the Camera Connection Kit provides the iPad with a Type-A port (that is, a female Type-A connector) so you can plug a USB flash drive or the Type-A end of a USB cable into the iPad.

Now, your other cable is a standard MIDI-to-USB cable for connecting a keyboard that has MIDI DIN ports to one of the USB Type-A ports on a computer.

The only way you'll be able to use those two cables to do what you're wanting to accomplish is if you can find a MIDI merger device that has two USB Type-A ports in lieu of two MIDI IN ports, plus a MIDI OUT port so you can send the merged MIDI data to the Ketron SD2.

I won't say that no such MIDI merger device exists, because you could use a laptop as one if you're running an app that can merge MIDI data, although then you'd need another MIDI-to-USB cable for connecting the laptop to the Ketron, or else use the one you've already got for that and use a standard USB cable for connecting the Roland to the laptop. The Lightning-to-USB cable would of course connect the iPad to the laptop.

But other than something like a laptop or desktop computer, I don't know of any low-tech MIDI merger hardware devices that use USB Type-A ports instead of MIDI IN ports.

Some iConnectivity interfaces have a USB Type-A port for connecting a USB-MIDI device, but not all of them do. And those that do have only one USB Type-A port, so if you want to plug both of your cables into it then you'll need to plug your cables into a USB hub and plug the USB hub into the iConnectivity interface. The mio2 that I mentioned won't work, because it doesn't have a USB Type-A port, just two USB Type-B ports for connecting the mio2 to as many as two computers at once. If you want to go the iConnectivity route, I believe you'll need a mio4, iConnectMIDI4+, or mio10, with the mio4 being the least expensive option and the mio10 the most expensive.
 
Ad

Advertisements

SeaGtGruff

I meant to play that note!
Moderator
Joined
Jun 6, 2014
Messages
2,514
Reaction score
1,036
One more possibility that might work-- just use a USB hub.
  • Use a standard USB cable to connect the Roland to the hub.
  • Use that Lightning-to-USB cable to connect the iPad to the hub.
  • Use that MIDI-to-USB cable to connect the hub to the Ketron.
Then you'd need to use a MIDI app on the iPad to merge the MIDI coming from the Roland with the MIDI coming from the set list app and send the merged MIDI data to the Ketron-- assuming the MIDI merger app can see the Roland and the Ketron through the USB hub. I don't know if that will work, but USB hubs are cheap so it wouldn't cost much to try it, and if it doesn't work then you've got a USB hub in case you ever need one.

As far as my other two suggestions (if the USB hub idea doesn't work out), they would basically cost the same:

iConnectivity mio4 $150
MIDI Solutions Merger $70 + IK Multimedia iRig MIDI 2 $80 = Total Price $150

I just think the MIDI Solutions and iRig boxes would be more low-tech than the mio4, although the mio4 would probably be a more flexible solution in the long run in terms of everything else it can do beyond just merging MIDI data-- as long as you aren't worried about any of the rebooting problems that some people have reported with some of the iConnectivity interfaces (which I don't know how common a thing that is, or if it's a problem that was fixed long ago, etc.).

EDIT -- Also, the iConnectivity mio4 requires any USB-MIDI device to be class-compliant. But that shouldn't be a problem as long as you're using the MIDI ports to connect it to the Roland and Ketron, and then using the USB Type-A port to connect to the iPad.
 
Last edited:

Ask a Question

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

You'll need to choose a username for the site, which only take a couple of moments. After that, you can post your question and our members will help you out.

Ask a Question

Top