Really tired of all my patches sounding different at different venues

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Cool. You need to look up manuals on your boards to see what Jacks are on the outputs. If TRS, I use a TRS Jack to Male XLR cable to go balanced into my monitor (powered speaker actually Alto TS212). My SPS4-8 and Roland FA-08 are both TRS and the Alto has 2 channels separately volumed. If your keys are Mono, a DI box or 2 would be handy. I am rarely stereo unless on a Pro stage like PKD Festival. Do you use a mixer? If not think about that. TRS- XLR into a small desk like a Notepad (Circa £100 so likely $100-140 given Rip Off Britain prices are close to dollar value) then you only need to send 2 XLR to the main board.
 
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Great question, for which I have no good technical answer. ("Dammit, Jim, I'm a keyboard player, not an electronics tech!") All I know is that my rig (Yamahas MOXF8 and MOX6, plus a little Voce V5 Hammond clone box through a Ventilator, and the Nord once comfortable with it) all afford me stereo outputs that I send to my personal keyboard mixer. I need and use that little mixer's EQ, too, to lower the mids (and the muddiness) my patches tend to create! I could go mono without much loss of sound fidelity, but I'd lose some of the Leslie effect through my stereo monitoring onstage, as well as just a hint of stereo effects on some other electric keyboard patches. Anytime I've had the rare luxury of a FOH system and sound man, stereo outs don't overload the huge house board. If we're doing our own sound, that's not the case, so I've tried to stake out and defend two channels with mixed success. Like you, I've had to deal with limited channels. I think all or almost all of my keyboard outs are unbalanced, standard TS "phone jack" outputs, but I've been lucky enough to be able to use both left and right signals.

That said, I'll share an example of what I think is the esoteric (I translate that as "unpredictable", "unfathomable", etc.) nature of electricity AND show my general technical ignorance. A Twofer!!: I have a unique problem here in the desert, driven home to me once I acquired last year the CenterPoint Spacestation I mentioned. As a boutique 'n' unique frequency-related stereo amplifier (NOT utilizing the standard left/right stereo relationship... I don't fully understand it and won't pretend to explain it), it is super sensitive to static electricity. We have plenty of that here in the desert. So any little gradient, or electrical charge per cubic meter, was causing awful pops and noises...amplified!! Just sitting down or getting up from a chair (any type of surface) could set off the awfulness. So, for no reason other than to try to manage that static, I followed the manufacturer's suggestion to change every single cable in my system (both recording and gigging) to TRS. It has worked to better than a 98% level, so I don't want to fool with success. So, yes, I use TRS cables even on unbalanced outputs, when you wouldn't think they're needed. Overkill? Misguided? Maybe. Probably. But the successful results are addictive. And I know just enough about electricity and electronics to know that detecting and controlling transients is as much art as science.

How do they send a mono signal out? Good question for a real tech wizard. As I said, I've been lucky enough not to be limited to using a mono signal for years.

From a technical standpoint, this post should successfully take me back down off any pedestal!! :)
 
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Ok, I did a quick bit of research. Hopefully I can limit the technobabble!!! I'm a bit of a techie, so am born to be a bore!!
The MoXF8 is not balanced out and would presume same will go for the 6 as same Manufacturer. Nords appear to be unbalanced too. Also the Ventilator.
You are all unbalanced. This is good, as I mentioned if you use a decent personal mixing desk and send only two stereo outputs to whatever sound system you use you should have reasonable parity wherever.
Life is often unfair, so can't guarantee anything!
Don.
 
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Back to the pedal problem. I use Yamaha FC 7 pedals and program each keyboard's midi settings for either midi cc# 7 for total volume control or midi cc# 11 for expression. As for tonal differences, that's definitely trickier. Even the guitar players have major issues with their "tone" from venue to venue. I've found no easy answer for that except that I set up my rig outside, set my tones up where I like them and leave them there. I know then that I've done all I can do to create authenticity to my sound and it sounded as good to my ears as I could get it. Out side is the best place to "calibrate" your sounds as there's no room altering the sounds.

I even went so far as to replace the pots in certain FC 7's with the proper ones for each instrument. I like them to all be the same height and feel. The Hammond Sk 2 pedal is an example of this. I'm looking for the video of your performance to see if there's any other ideas we could try. And don't let ANY dammed guitar player give you crap about what your doing as most don't have a clue as to what you're trying to do.:p

I'm an old guy (I go on Medicare in about 3 months) been doing this since I was 18 years old so I got a bit of an idea what I'm doing. If you didn't guess by now, I also have a bit of an attitude when it comes to guitar players criticizing real musicians (there are notable exceptions of course).:D

Daniel Meier proud multi keyboardist
 
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I think my setup is a bit different than most. I use a single 88 key controller through a laptop, with a wireless keytar mirroring it so I can jump around and do goofy stuff from time to time. In my working band, I don't do that many keyboard splits. Though I'll often switch patches from verse/chorus and things like that, it depends on the song. And really, I have one hand free quite a bit of the time, and the very least a few seconds here and there to change sliders/nobs.

Which brings me to my next point... I'm not crazy about volume pedals. I love rocker pedals for wah and large tonal changes, but to me, volume is a fairly fine motor control, and fingers will always be better suited for that. I always use a volume fader and not a pot, because I can very quickly flick it one direction or another, and I've never really found myself thinking "Damn, I wish I could change the volume but I can't because both my hands are busy". I'll just drop a passing tone, or flick it between chords and I'm good. No, my problem isn't so much HOW to change volume, but how to hear correctly that the FOH mix isn't good.

Now, in original, more synth-oriented bands, then yes, volume between patches is an issue. But once again, since I'm doing things more-or-less Ruddess-style with one board, I don't have that luxury of having multiple pedals/sliders for each board. But I've learned to not really trust my hearing anyway, since my monitor mix between the two instruments may have no resemblance to FOH.

If I ever have a regular touring gig with a synth-oriented band, I'll submit all my types of sounds out to different outputs: Pianos/E Pianos on 1, Organs on 2, Pads on 3, Leads on 4, etc. So the FOH mixer can deal with them. But with my current bar-room setups, that's not helpful.
 
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TRS Outputs on Kurzweils ARE Balanced Outputs. That's why they have paired L&R TRS Line and Aux Outs.

The TRS outs are NOT stereo outs. They are single channel balanced outputs.

Gary ;)


Almost positive the little Yamaha is not balanced outs (wish it was, but its a cheapie)... but did some . IF I just go out "mono" (or even just the right channel) I get a reduced signal output. IF I go full stereo, the signal is greater (I wonder if in combining the two somehow parts of the mono signal gets "phased out"? Only thing I can figure out.... weird.
 

happyrat1

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On a balanced output, the cable carries two signals, 180 degrees out of phase with each other. A proper balanced output to a balanced input SHOULD sound louder.

z_fig3.gif


Dunno whether or not your Hammond has balanced outs though.

Gary ;)
 
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I wondered how long it would take for someone to mention volume pedals as a possible management tool. I'm old and that's all I've ever known. That is until I picked up a Hammond SK1 73 a couple years ago and a Nord Electro 5D 73 a few weeks ago. The Nord replaces the Hammond. While I was busy not buying keyboards, apparently and unfortunately, the rest of the keyboard playing world told manufacturers to de-emphasize the use of volume pedals for anything but organ patches. Oh, there was/is a jack for a pedal, and it works, but the "computer" in both keyboards (yes, folks, keyboard players are usually the only ones in a band dealing with a damned computer... or three) is set to a default of NO VOLUME PEDAL CONTROL on everything but the organ programs. On the Hammond, every non-organ patch required going into a menu to find and turn "on" the Expression Pedal, save it, and hope it worked for future use... which didn't always happen. Why in the world Nord couldn't make "volume pedal control on" the default for all piano and synth programs, as well, I do not know. Pisses me off, because I now have to make one or two extra key punches into the computer before I can prevent the problem Eric's writing about. I will eventually save settings in the User section, but it's a pain. At least the Nord's indicators and the controls for changing them are right up front and not buried in a menu like the Hammond.

Manufacturers get a clue. Global volume control with a pedal is useful to many more people that you think. Make it the default, and let those who don't want it turn it "off".

Even though I've got a few more years on you, you've got a lot more talent and facility on the keys than I've got, my friend. My badly-paid amateur's advice, Eric, is to give up on perfection, aim at improvement, and get a volume pedal or two. I've stopped using patches that don't work well universally. But then, I save a lot of heartburn by not committing my life as a player to trying to "cover" tunes to the level of being a "tribute player" where I'd agonize over whether I have exactly the sound that was on the original recording... and seldom if ever heard again even from the original band. (My finest keyboardist's whine!)

Patches, programs, timbres, frequency responses, house acoustics, peoples' ears, levels of alcohol consumption, crowd size, and probably humidity and the phase of the moon along with a few other things control what comes out at each venue. And they all affect each other in multiple ways at different times, so it's almost ludicrous to think we can control the sum total of that dynamic, complex mix of stuff all that well. And, yet, I strive for that control, too. Timbre has a ton to do with the "apparent" volume the ear senses, so with the range of patches you mention, it's a challenge. I'd say you've gone above and beyond in trying to set up good sounds in songs that require several sounds balanced with each other. IMHO, it's an ambitious undertaking, so the risk of just such audio mishaps is high. You're a very successful band, so the reward:risk ratio must be pretty high. After that much work to control the sonic risks, though, it might be time to figure out how to adapt to reality.

My way is volume pedals. Hands-free control. If there is FOH sound without a FOH sound guy, that's another deficit. Bands who think they can control all the players from the stage will get it right maybe 60% of the time, so perfection is out the window already. I can honor the intention, but must point out the hubris.

Finally... this: I've grown to care less about audiences, although venue owners have the power. Audiences lap up almost anything, especially when drunk. This is reassuring and disappointing all at the same time. As one writer above wrote, they couldn't care less about the keyboardist's timbre/volume mismatches. They can't hear and probably won't remember them. I play for my own ears and those of my bandmates. If we can get a sound on stage that makes us all audibly balanced, happy, and energized, that energy communicates to the audience.. and THAT'S what makes a successful band. It ain't the money anymore that gives me satisfaction... it's a pittance... it's the satisfying sound, well-crafted by players who give a damn. And, though complainers they may be, your bandmates want that experience on stage as their compensation, too. They may have a crappy way of putting it, but that's likely what they're trying to say.

Here endeth the soapbox session. Best of luck! Continue using that great audio discernment you've got going on!
Awesome comment - that last paragraph- thank you.
 

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