Using Cubase for live gig-- any advice???

[wheel]

Hi--
Here is the dilemma: I own Cubase 5- but only use it for studio recording. We (two not-so-techno-savvy musicians) want to play live and incorporate various virtual instruments (NI B4 organs, Mellotron player, other virtual instuments) and sampled instruments (in Kontakt--Akoustik Piano, Scarbee samples, etc) into the performance. I am not talking about ELO of some wild Kitaro synth setup---but just one keyboard that would alternately draw from about 6 or 7 sounds. But I need to be able to store/save various set ups for each song---slightly tweaked sound (saturation, eq, fx etc) and on many of the songs have the virtual instruments partitioned or assigned out on the keyboard (organ on the lower 30 keys, piano in the middle, strings on top for example---next song a little different).

Now I could create a new project for each song in Cubase--get all the levels and midi assignments right and then open each project for each song as we play the set. The problem, though, is that especially with sampled stuff is that this solution will take too long between songs to open up each project.

I would like to stick with Cubase (as I don't have the time and skills to learn new software) but I may find that Cubase does not offer a way that within one project--with a click of the mouse, I could call up different settings (for each live song). btw--(I looked into Native Instruments Kore 2-- which would do this but it is a mammoth program that amounts to a sledge hammer, when all I need is a small mallet; Kontakt would work too except it ONLY does sampled instruments--and I have 2 or 3 virtual ones that wont work with it).

SOmeone gave me the shrewd advice to load all the midi channels and virtual instrument tracks on a single Cubase project, and then with markers on the time line (though there would be no sound files recorded on the time line) automate different settings with the various midi tracks that I have set up. And then when playing live just move to various markers. Great, but can I automate different keyboard splits? And what if I want a different sound from a single program-- like a different Hammond selection on one song? I don't think I could automate, for example, a switch on the timeline from, say a Steinway sample, to a Boesendorfer sample within the same program.

Maybe I will have to satisfied with simpler instrument changes, and fx automation, but stick with my favorite organ, pianos, sounds.

Does this sound like a sane way to tackle this problem? Is Cubase stable enough? Do you foresee any huge problems?

wheel

 

[kanthos]

I've tried doing this with Cubase. It could work, but you'd be better served by getting a different piece of software. There are a few others out there besides Kore: Forte, Cantabile, Chainer, and energyXT.

Cubase isn't going to let you change keyboard splits on the fly. Basically, anything you can send to an individual instrument can be automated, but anything to Cubase as a whole can't be. You're fixed in your channel assignments (your B3 will always be channel 1, Mellotron will always be channel 2, and so on), which may not be how you want to send data from your keyboards. In my case (two keyboards plus laptop), I need more flexibility than that - one of my keyboards uses fixed channels, and I need the laptop to be flexible. You're fixed in your splits too: you can do those by using MIDI plugins, but unless they were updated in Cubase 5 to respond to MIDI Learn (I don't think they did in Cubase 4, which is what I have), you've got no way to alter the plugin settings. Plus, if I recall correctly, the way to do splits is by using a MIDI *filter*, which is counter-intuitive (you're thinking about which notes are disallowed instead of which are allowed).

In short, you can definitely use Cubase for live performance, but you'll make sacrifices as you do so; whether those are too limiting for you depends on what exactly you need.

Personally, I love Kore. I'm not sure what you mean by it being a mammoth: what features do you think it has that would be of no use to you? It doesn't have many features that I don't use live, other than its sound library and sound browser, though those are useful in recording. Having the Kore Controller is icing on the cake too: I use it for extra volume control over groups of sounds (knob for all my orchestral sounds in Kontakt, master knob for all my synth sounds), and, using a MIDI-to-keystroke translator, to control a PDF application so I can move through leadsheets - since the PDF viewer lets me add my own annotations to the PDFs, I've got custom performance notes there that the rest of the band doesn't need.

 

[biolife]

Wheel,

Since this is an old question, you have probably already decided on a system a long time ago. I would like to say that I use Cubase to trigger not only my own instruments live, but also our band's other keyboard player, plus I run the click track from it (an audio file). I also have a MIDI channel that changes all the POD's guitar patches throughout the set.

The main thing I want to comment on is that you most certainly can change MIDI channels, and thus instruments, on the fly using MIDI commands inserted into articulation lanes. Basically, you just set up on MIDI track wherein each note is set to a different articulation lane. I routinely go from playing pipe organ to piano to strings to whatever in the same song, all from one MIDI track. I use Kontakt as my sampler.

I also have a Steinberg MR816 interface, which allows each keyboard track to have it's own stereo out, as well as the click track. This means that each instrument can be mixed separately at the board.

 

[goz211]

Welcome to the forum biolife - yes it's an old thread but your info will come up if someone is on here doing a search.

Which version of Kontakt are you on?
Also are you running live in MONO or STEREO for your Kontakt stuff?

 

[Vctor]

Sampled sounds on Kontakt, or virtual instruments will work only on studio, for recording.
For a live performance I wouldn't recommend it. Just imagine your computer crash...lots of things can happen.

 

[biolife]

My Cubase Set-up for Live Performance

Thanks for the welcome, Goz211. I am using Kontakt 5 (8 outs). We have two keyboardists, and we run the keyboards in to two separate instances of Kontakt, and then each Kontakt runs stereo out through ports on the Steinberg MR816 interface, which is made for Cubase. I also have the click track running as a separate stereo out (I know it doesn't need stereo, but there's no reason not to in my set-up). All those outs from the MR816 feed into the mixer, so each keyboard can be separately mixed like any other. You can use another audio interface as long as it has multiple outs. I like the MR816 because it perfectly integrates with Cubase and because it has zero latency due to its direct monitoring mode (which actually works).

For an overview:

MARKER TRACK
I have the set-list plotted out on the marker track in Cubase. Each marker is a song. My keyboard is Yamaha KX61, which is a Cubase-specific MIDI controller/keyboard. In the Device Panel you can open up the Yamaha settings and map almost any function of Cubase to the KX16. I have one button (Cubase function1) set up to "Play until next marker" and another (Cubase function 2) set to Stop(helpful during band practice when you need to start and stop). I have the INC (increment) button set up to "Locate next marker" and the DEC button set to "Locate previous marker." An alternative to owning a Cubase control interface would be to use a wireless numeric keyboard and map keyboard shortcuts for a $30 Cubase controller. I used to do it that way before I bought the KX16. If you get the KX16 it is a must to update the drivers.

Note: Some people like to use the Arranger Track in order to navigate songs. That's an alternate method. I do use the Arranger Track, so that I can create different set-lists. You can re-order the songs that way, and then flatten them out and then use markers for transport control. Also, some prefer to use cycle markers instead of regular ones, but this write-up focuses only on the method I chose.

AUDIO TRACKS
One audio track is a click sent to an MR816 stereo out. This is ultimately sent to a monitor mix. The other audio track is a wave file containing the backing tracks sent to the FOH.

MIDI TRACKS
1-2: Keyboards - each keyboardist has a separate MIDI track. If you use the KX61, the MIDI in is channel 1, whereas the control info is sent through channel 2. In the inspector you want to choose channel 1, and you have to open up Device Panel and set up channel two to control Cubase's transport. Ours second keyboardist comes in through an M-Audio MIDIsport 4x4.

The keyboard outs are sent to separate Kontakt instances, one for each keyboardist. In Kontakt all the instrument samples are loaded for the set. I tend to use light versions when possible and purge instruments before a show in order to reduce RAM load. Each instrument is set to a different MIDI channel, unless you want to layer instruments or make a split-keyboard. Splitting a keyboard is easy, just open up the Kontakt mapping area and remove note zones from whatever keys you do or do not want to play with your keyboard. Map two instruments to the same MIDI channel, have non-overlapping note zones, and boom, you have a split-keyboard. I add this in because I have heard some say you can't have split-keyboards in Cubase live.

An important point: you MUST set up your multiple stereo outs properly in Kontakt and you MUST activate those stereo outs in the "Activate Outs" section of your VST Instruments panel next to where Kontakt is listed. It's a little tiny icon, but if you don't do this you will never be able to hear you instruments!

Each keyboard track has an expression map set up. You don't even have to add notes, actually. Just set up as many articulations in your expression map set-up screen (left click on the expression map name to open it) as you have instruments. Then make sure each articulation is set to "Direction". Then open up the Key Editor and draw in an articulation (touch the pencil tool to the place where you want the instrument voice to change). Do this for every place you want the voice to change the set.

I also have a MIDI track set up for my PODxt Live, so I never have to worry about changing patches live. It also can mute and un-mute my POD. That's done by drawing in a blank MIDI event, then opening up List Editor and simply drawing in Program Change events wherever I want the changes to occur in the timeline. There's even a program change heading on the menu so, you don't have to search for the controller info.

Anyway, that's my set-up. It works for us and I love it.

Vctor, I have been using Cubase/Kontakt liver for years for live shows and have never had a problem beyond the usual problems of cords being plugged in wrong, etc., but that happens with every instrument live.

I read a lot of forums (usually lurking) because I like to learn what others are doing. Sometimes I pick up really good hints. But I find that there are two arguments against using Cubase live in almost every instance where the topic is brought up:


ARGUMENTS AGAINST CUBASE LIVE:
1) Don't use computers live, they crash.
2) Don't use Cubase live, it's not made for that, use Ableton Live instead.
3) You can't do Thing X in Cubase (split-keyboards, separate MIDI channels, etc.)

MY RESPONSES:
1) If your computer is crashing live a lot, then you aren't doing it right. Sure, you can have a computer that can't handle it, and sure, every computer has a crash from time-to-time. But why would you be using a computer that can't handle it? You wouldn't even be able to have band practice that way. It's almost like natural selection. If you can practice effectively with your set-up, you can play out with it. Invariable practices take longer than the set anyway. Not to mention that it's done every day by just about every professional act out there. The person I consider the greatest engineer to ever have lived, Alan Parsons, relies on a laptop live for his keys. Why shouldn't I? Playing live is risky, and I'm more apt to screw up a guitar solo than have my computer crash. But it's worth it.

2) I have been using Cubase since Cubase VST 3.0 in 1997 when I got it packaged with a Soundblaster. I am not changing just because someone else doesn't know how to set it up for live performance.

3) Cubase can do whatever you want. I can't think of anything I want to do live that Cubase can't do. Split keys, no problem. Use the mapper in Kontakt. Separate MIDI channels? Just use VST expression mapping. Set up markers for different songs and you don't have to change folders. Use active monitoring and activate your monitors on the MIDI tracks and you don't even have to have you MIDI tracks selected.

I hope this might help someone who wants to use Cubase live

 

[gmd221]

Wow !!!

Thank you so much Biolife for sharing your experience with cubase life. I registered because of you post ...
I am contemplating using Cubase 5 for live performances, but I should say; although I have started using cubase since version 2.0, your explanations make me dizzy (it is not you, I have been out of the loop for so long, I am lost)
You write up is really good, I know quite a bit of Cubase for recording, but this is a new realm for me. What would you recommend for someone like me.
I just need to do some really simple things, like play live with a pre recorded track ... what is the best way for a starter ?
Again, Thanks for you input!

 

[biolife]

Hi gmd221,

Well, my response is that what is best for someone depends on exactly what you want to do live.

My setup is in response to my needs. I need to not only play to a backing track, but also need to trigger samples in real time from two different keyboards, and have those samples change throughout the song. It also changes the programs on my POD for my guitar.

You say that you just need to play live with a pre-recorded track. What are you playing? Keyboards, guitar, etc? If you are not playing an instrument from inside of Cubase, by far the simplest thing would be to play to a backing track coming from an MP3 player. That's what I would do if that were my only need. Can you give more detail as to exactly what you will be doing live?

The basic premise of my post was to reassure folks that you could indeed use Cubase live without all the problems everyone warns you about. I was so frustrated when I was setting this up because it seems so many discussions on technical forums seem to go like this:

AudioSeeker1: I own Gear X. Does anyone know how I can use Gear X to make Y happen?

GodofallKnowledge: Have you tried using Gear Z to do that? It's much better.

AudioSeeker1: I don't own or plan to buy Gear Z. I have Gear X.

GodofallKnowledge: You should really try Gear Z.

AudioSeeker1: I can't afford Gear Z. Look, I just want to know if Gear X will do this.

GodofallKnowledge: But if you use Gear X, it has a habit of hanging, and then you have to pull the power plug from the wall.

MasterofAudio3: Why would you yank the power cord? Just hold down the power button for five seconds and the computer will cycle off.

GodofallKnowledge: Not all brands have that function. MacBooks have a six-second waiting period, and I'll be damned if I'm waiting six seconds.

MasterofAudio3: That's because Macs are made by Hitler and anyone using them is a Nazi.

AudioSeeker1: Look, guys, I don't care about power button variations..I just want to use Gear X to make Y happen.

GodofallKnownledge1: You stay out of this!

MasterofAudio3: Yes! we're debating power button options here!

 

[ootini]

Love the post!

Just a thought though, to avoid any "potential" crashes, isn't the Muse Receptor built to do this kind of thing? As in soft synth host, not Cubase host.

 

[Contempose]

Hi gmd221,

Well, my response is that what is best for someone depends on exactly what you want to do live.

My setup is in response to my needs. I need to not only play to a backing track, but also need to trigger samples in real time from two different keyboards, and have those samples change throughout the song. It also changes the programs on my POD for my guitar.

You say that you just need to play live with a pre-recorded track. What are you playing? Keyboards, guitar, etc? If you are not playing an instrument from inside of Cubase, by far the simplest thing would be to play to a backing track coming from an MP3 player. That's what I would do if that were my only need. Can you give more detail as to exactly what you will be doing live?

The basic premise of my post was to reassure folks that you could indeed use Cubase live without all the problems everyone warns you about. I was so frustrated when I was setting this up because it seems so many discussions on technical forums seem to go like this:

AudioSeeker1: I own Gear X. Does anyone know how I can use Gear X to make Y happen?

GodofallKnowledge: Have you tried using Gear Z to do that? It's much better.

AudioSeeker1: I don't own or plan to buy Gear Z. I have Gear X.

GodofallKnowledge: You should really try Gear Z.

AudioSeeker1: I can't afford Gear Z. Look, I just want to know if Gear X will do this.

GodofallKnowledge: But if you use Gear X, it has a habit of hanging, and then you have to pull the power plug from the wall.

MasterofAudio3: Why would you yank the power cord? Just hold down the power button for five seconds and the computer will cycle off.

GodofallKnowledge: Not all brands have that function. MacBooks have a six-second waiting period, and I'll be damned if I'm waiting six seconds.

MasterofAudio3: That's because Macs are made by Hitler and anyone using them is a Nazi.

AudioSeeker1: Look, guys, I don't care about power button variations..I just want to use Gear X to make Y happen.

GodofallKnownledge1: You stay out of this!

MasterofAudio3: Yes! we're debating power button options here!

Hi Biolife
I was reading the discussion and enjoyed your sample forum thread regarding AudioSeeker, GodOfAllKnowledge, and MasterofAudio. I think this applies to a great deal of information sharing on the web.
Of course I was also interested in your considerable experience with Cubase. I'm not really familiar with the package, but was rather keen to play with some soft synths (absolute beginner stuff). Does one need a dedicated piece of VSTI hardware, such as Cubase, just to get started? Perhaps you already know of some place to start?