first keyboard purchase

[muddpuddle]

I play bass, but recently fell in love with keys.... I'm looking to buy a keyboard and would like some help. I have some specific needs that must be met regarding the keyboard.... Must have full 88 keys, weighted, and have a sustain pedal. I'm mainly interested in piano only....however, my son's like the opportunity to explore other sounds for other purposes. I'm looking at a Yamaha KX88 controller with a tone generator... excellent condition, excellent price. My only concern is....Will I find that the unit is obsolete and not able to function in today's technical world.... Fyi, my budget is not more than $400-$500.

 

[SeaGtGruff]

I have no familiarity with the KX88-- but if you do mean the KX88 and not the KX8, I just saw some posts from several years ago that said it was the best MIDI controller that had ever been produced (up to that point, anyway). Since it's a MIDI controller, I shouldn't think it's in danger of being "obsolete."

 

[happyrat1]

The KX88 achieved legendary status in its time but it's 30 years old. At this point I wouldn't invest $500 in a 30 year old controller. It's bound to develop mechanical problems sometime soon if not already.

Take a look around at a more modern controller from Studiologic or Akai or Novation. You should be able to find something decent in the $500 range. Remember, you get what you pay for. You might find a used one for a couple hundred less but usually the only reason someone sells a controller is cause they have problems with it. Otherwise they don't really go obsolete.

As for rack modules, you can pick up a nice Triton Rack or Motif XS Rack also for about $500 on eBay or craigslist.

And there are dozens of freeware VSTi instruments available out there for PCs. Really you might be able to just get by with a good controller and a few select VSTi programs and a good quality laptop or iPad.

If you want something decent it's gonna run you close to a thou no matter what you look at but you'll have the equivalent of hardware that sold for $3000 ten years ago.

That's my $0.02

Gary

 

[muddpuddle]

Thanks Gary..... I appreciate your input. The guy selling is prepping for a move, and pearing down his equipment list. Only asking $200 for the controller. I just didn't know if it would be like my old laptop which runs XP, and isn't prepared to ever run Windows 8.

You mention free VSTi.... What's that?

 

[SeaGtGruff]

Yeah, the point about age and the possibility of mechanical problems is well made.

I think the reason a couple of people on the other forum (Piano World) were saying the KX88 was the best MIDI controller ever made was due to its overall construction design, materials, and key action-- "All wooden action."(?) That thread wasn't as old as I thought-- only 2 years old (June and July of 2012). I think I was looking at the join date for one of the posters and saw 2009, so I figured the thread was from 2009.

 

[muddpuddle]

I have no familiarity with the KX88-- but if you do mean the KX88 and not the KX8, I just saw some posts from several years ago that said it was the best MIDI controller that had ever been produced (up to that point, anyway). Since it's a MIDI controller, I shouldn't think it's in danger of being "obsolete."

It is in fact the KX88... and of course....everything works.....

He said I'd need a sound generator???? I'm already in over my head....remember... all I ever needed was four strings......

 

[happyrat1]

A VSTi is a "Virtual Studio Technology Instrument" loosely referred to as a "Soft Synth."

There are freeware and commercial Soft Synths available. They are usually DAW plugins but you can also install VSTi Host software to allow you to play on the fly.

Basically your sample lengths and effects and the number of layers you can play are only limited by the speed of your CPU and how much RAM you have.

Great for home studios, not so terrific for gigging since you have to haul around a computer. Basically though, VST technology is the future of studio audio production.

Then again all of us old gearheads prefer rack modules which never crash at the wrong moment, are easy to set up, and generally bulletproof on stage.

Gary

 

[happyrat1]

Yeah keyboard gear can get complicated and expensive, but it's well worth the trip.

Even for $200 I'd be iffy cause you might end up having to spend $400 to fix it really soon.

Plus a good quality modern controller has both USB and Real MIDI ports on it. MIDI by itself is also good enough but don't get anything with USB only. That will severely limit your options.

Here's some pretty decent Studiologic controllers. They use some of the best modern key actions in the business.

http://www.studiologic-music.com/products/midi-controllers.html

Gary

 

[SeaGtGruff]

"VSTi" is an abbreviation for "VST instrument." "VST" is "Virtual Studio Technology," a software interface developed by Steinberg back in the '90s that has become very popular and pervasive. There are now many thousands (millions?) of programs available called "VST plug-ins," some for adding effects (reverb, chorus, etc.) to audio tracks, and others for adding virtual instruments (pianos, organs, synths, guitars, basses, strings, horns, etc.). Some VST instruments can be used as either standalone programs or as plug-ins for DAWs ("digital audio workstations"). If you search the web for "free vst plug-ins" you can find numerous sites devoted to listing descriptions and links for VST plug-ins. There are some really good free ones available, as well as commercial programs that can cost a hundred dollars or more. Likewise, there are some good DAWs that are either free or very inexpensive, as well as commercial programs that can cost several hundreds of dollars. So once you've got your MIDI keyboard controller-- be it the KX88 or a more recent controller-- you can download a free DAW and some free VST instruments to start having some serious fun!

Edit: Sorry, while I was typing this up Gary/happyrat1 beat me to the punch!

 

[happyrat1]

The Studiologic VMK-88Plus can be had around $650.

http://www.amazon.com/Studiologic-VMK-88-Lightweight-Keyboard-Controller/dp/B001MWD908

Here's a review of the beast.

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb07/articles/fatar.htm

 

[SeaGtGruff]

MIDI keyboard controllers can be expensive or inexpensive, depending on several factors-- materials and construction, key action, number of keys, number of controls, etc.

Depending on your specific needs (i.e., intended usage), there are generally two ways to go-- a small, lightweight keyboard (often having just 25 keys) that's very convenient to tote around with you, so you can write songs while you're traveling or are otherwise away from home; or a larger keyboard (having anywhere from 49 to 88 keys) that will pretty much stay put in your "musician cave."

Either way, you'll probably want to get something that has a decent number of buttons, knobs, sliders, wheels, etc., since those things (generally called "MIDI control surfaces") can be mapped to functions in a DAW or VST plug-in. For instance, if there are nine sliders then they can be mapped to the nine organ drawbars for adding different harmonics to a drawbar organ sound; or the knobs could be mapped to the oscillator controls of a soft synth; etc. These types of functions can also be controlled with a mouse from inside the program, so it isn't essential to map control surfaces to them-- but it's a lot more convenient to be able to just turn a knob or push a slider on the keyboard versus having to reach for your computer's mouse, your laptop's touch pad, or your tablet's touch screen.

 

[happyrat1]

The only reason I'm pushing the Studiologics is that they are a subsidiary of Fatar in Italy who supplies some of the best 88 Key actions in the business to multiple other keyboard manufacturers who don't build their own keybeds.

My Kurzweil uses a Fatar TP40L or TP40M in it and it's a great feeling keyboard.

The Akai and higher end Novation controllers also have a good rep, but I have no personal experience with any of their models.

Stay far away from M-Audio controllers. I own one of their Mid Range Oxygen 49's and I swear it's a humongous piece of crap.

Gary

 

[muddpuddle]

Great help guys..... Very very appreciative. I'll look a little bit longer. It helps to get the little bit if education that you have provided in order to know what I'm looking at....

 

[CowboyNQ]

Hey Mudd,

Plenty of good info above from Michael and Gary. The only thing I'll add is that in your first post you mention a sustain pedal is a necessity. You can easily buy a good quality sustain pedal "after market" quite cheaply so I wouldn't make that a hill to die on if you find a keyboard you like. These days most of them come with polarity switches too so they'll be compatible with whatever keyboard you choose.

Cheers,

Paul

 

[happyrat1]

The way I assumed it he meant a sustain pedal input was a necessity. Either way the studiologic I linked has two assignable CC Controller and two assignable Switch Pedal Jacks.

More than enough to satisfy the pickiest of performers I think

Gary

 

[happyrat1]

Better price on the VMK-88 Plus. $525 at B&H Photo Online. I've dealt with these guys many times before and their prices are hard to beat.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...ic_VMK_88_PLUS_VMK88_Keyboard_Controller.html

EDIT >>> I just noticed the VMK 88 is "semi weighted."

If you want full hammer action weighted you have to spring for the VMK 188 Plus which costs $730. It also weighs 46 lb instead of 14 lb.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/660643-REG/StudioLogic_VMK_188_PLUS_VMK188_Plus.html

Semi weighted should not be a total dealbreaker unless you absolutely have to have true piano touch.

For playing synth voices and stuff like woodwinds and strings and brass hammer action can actually be a hindrance.

I'd suggest visiting a local music shop and try out some different weighted actions to decide before you buy.

Gary

 

[muddpuddle]

Hey Mudd,

Plenty of good info above from Michael and Gary. The only thing I'll add is that in your first post you mention a sustain pedal is a necessity. You can easily buy a good quality sustain pedal "after market" quite cheaply so I wouldn't make that a hill to die on if you find a keyboard you like. These days most of them come with polarity switches too so they'll be compatible with whatever keyboard you choose.

Cheers,

Paul

Thanks Paul.... I have had some cheap keyboards in the house for the kids. No pedals, only plays one note at a time...no inputs...no outputs.... I my

Better price on the VMK-88 Plus. $525 at B&H Photo Online. I've dealt with these guys many times before and their prices are hard to beat.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...ic_VMK_88_PLUS_VMK88_Keyboard_Controller.html

EDIT >>> I just noticed the VMK 88 is "semi weighted."

If you want full hammer action weighted you have to spring for the VMK 188 Plus which costs $730. It also weighs 46 lb instead of 14 lb.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/660643-REG/StudioLogic_VMK_188_PLUS_VMK188_Plus.html

Semi weighted should not be a total dealbreaker unless you absolutely have to have true piano touch.

For playing synth voices and stuff like woodwinds and strings and brass hammer action can actually be a hindrance.

I'd suggest visiting a local music shop and try out some different weighted actions to decide before you buy.

Gary

 

[muddpuddle]

Guys.... I feel like we just shared a cup of coffee at the diner.....great info. Very helpful. I think what I'm going to do today is get the kx88 midi controller. It's $200. If it becomes an anchor in a year....no big deal. My only concern was that I don't want an anchor today. Not knowing a lot about them, I didn't want to get into a situation like buying a laptop that only runs Windows95... This will be a good intro for me at an easy out of pocket price.

Now.....I've been told that I will need the midi controller, a sound generator, and the music software.....is all that true??? I already have amps and cords....

 

[happyrat1]

If you plan to use the KX88 with Soft Synths, you'll need to be able to connect to your computer. You'll need one of these cables.

http://www.amazon.com/Generic-USB-M...qid=1408251320&sr=8-1&keywords=USB+MIDI+cable

For software you'll need a few VSTi plugins and some freeware DAW software.

Reaper is an evaluation copy that never stops evaluating and Anvilstudio is freeware for the basic version with commercial addons which many never really need.

http://www.anvilstudio.com/

http://www.reaper.fm/

And for VSTi Plugins here's a great list to start.

http://www.musicradar.com/tuition/tech/the-27-best-free-vst-plug-ins-in-the-world-today-277953/

And lastly if you need a free VST software host you can pick up one of these.

http://bedroomproducersblog.com/2011/05/16/bpb-freeware-studio-best-free-vst-host-applications/

That covers the free software.

Then there's always ebay and craigslist and look around for a used Korg Triton Rack or Korg TR Rack or used Yamaha Motif Rack.

Some older ones can be had for well under $500.

Plug one of those into your Bass Amp and you'd be good to go.

Either way, hardware or software, $200 is a pretty cheap buy in and add a $4 interface and you'll already be making music on your PC.

Sorry if I scared you off with the pricey controllers but keyboardists are the ultimate gear heads when it comes to pricey electronics.

A $300 used bass or guitar can perform perfectly well on stage, but if you cheap out on keyboards your audience will hear it.

Gary

 

[SeaGtGruff]

You mentioned an old laptop that runs XP. Do you have a desktop computer as well, or just the laptop? Are you planning to buy a newer computer or laptop? If you're going to set everything up in your home, there's no advantage to a laptop-- a desktop computer might be better. But if you want to have a setup that can be "taken on the road"-- even if that really just means taking your stuff to a friend's house to play-- then a laptop is more desirable because of it's greater portability. The main issue besides do you or don't you need portability is probably the computer's horsepower-- CPU speed, whether it has multiple processors, amount of hard drive space, amount of RAM, etc. Basically, if you want to use VST instruments then you'll generally need a computer that can handle a heavy load. You can use your existing laptop for now and see how it goes, but eventually you might want to get something better.

Assuming you're going to use your old XP laptop for now, you'll want a DAW that can run under XP. Some free options are as follows:

Anvil Studio (http://anvilstudio.com) -- Good for recording MIDI data, but I believe you must purchase an add-on module in order to use VST plug-ins with it.

SynthFont (http://www.synthfont.com) -- Here the situation is reversed; you can use VST plug-ins but you can't record MIDI data, at least not in the free version (SynthFont, as opposed to SynthFont2 which isn't free).

Podium Free (http://zynewave.com/podium-free/) -- I'm not sure if this is compatible with XP, but try it and see. The free version is just an older version of the commercial edition, with a couple of limitations that probably won't affect you. It can record MIDI input and can use VST plug-ins.

LMMS (http://lmms.sourceforge.net/home.php) -- I think you can record MIDI and use VST instruments, but I'm not sure.

There are others, including non-free but inexpensive DAWs such as Mixcraft (http://acoustica.com/mixcraft/) or REAPER (http://www.reaper.fm/).

When you use a VST instrument with your MIDI keyboard controller, your computer (and the VSTi software) acts as the sound-generation device, and the drivers for computer sound cards can be slow, leading to "latency"-- i.e., you press some keys on your MIDI keyboard and it takes a moment (sometimes a long moment) before the computer plays the sound for those keys. To overcome this issue you'll want to use ASIO drivers. I've read that it's best to use ASIO drivers that were designed for your specific hardware (if they're available), but if you can't find any then you can use the free ASIO4ALL driver (http://asio4all.com/).

As far as free VST instruments, you can look through the lists on sites like http://vstplanet.com/, or search using terms like "free vst instruments," "free vst plug-ins," "free soft synth," etc.

Edit: And if you're particularly interested in specific types of virtual instruments, you can search using more specific terms like "vst acoustic piano," "vst electric piano," "vst harpsichord," "vst organ," "vst guitar," etc.