JUNO DS88: effects in PERF mode

[premek]

Hi, please advise regarding effects settings in PERF mode.
This potentially creates a problem, especially when performing live:
You use the standard Grand Piano DS in one song
You use the Perky Twin B organ in a second song
You want to split those two patches in a PERF for a third song and you suddenly have the piano or the organ sounding differently because to me, it seems impossible to combine the effects in the PERF in a way that reflects the settings of each of the patches in the PATCH mode. Any way out of this?
Thank you!

 

[anotherscott]

Off-hand, I don't know about those particular sounds, but in general, in Patch mode, your one sound can have up to three effects. In Performance mode, you still have a maximum of three effects, and it's up to you as to how you want to allocate them among the multiple sounds in a Performance. Maybe that helps...?

 

[premek]

And that is exactly the problem. If I can only have 3 shared effects, then it is virtually impossible to have the sounds sounding the same as in patch mode. If I use the 3 effects from the organ sound, I have none left for the piano. And Rev + Chor are also shared. No workaround, anyone?

 

[happyrat1]

Perhaps simply add an external FX module and route each side of the split to a different stereo channel?

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Gary

 

[anotherscott]

And that is exactly the problem. If I can only have 3 shared effects, then it is virtually impossible to have the sounds sounding the same as in patch mode.

If the original sounds that you're combining have more than three effects between them, that is correct. However, many combinations won't fall into that category. You need to look at the effects for the individual patches you're trying to combine to make that determination. If it exceeds three, you'll have to go without some, or choose different patches to combine.

And Rev + Chor are also shared.

The standard Rev/Chorus are always shared, but there are also reverb and chorus effects you can apply individually (at the expense of using up some of the three total effects available for individual assignment).

 

[premek]

thank you. yes, I have finally given up trying to find a solution. the sounds will never sound the same in PERF mode as they do in PATCH mode. will have to work with that

 

[anotherscott]

It's common. The way Roland "fixed" this on the FA is by not letting you put more than one effect on a sound. So one one hand, it's better, because you can actually put effects on up to 16 split/layered/sequenced sounds... but OTOH, you can no longer put two or three effects on a single sound like you can on the DS. (Besides the global reverb/chorus.)

 

[anotherscott]

I need to correct what I said above. While it's true that the DS lets you put more than one MFX on a sound (and the FA does not), I had forgotten, you still need to be in Performance mode to do that, AFAIK. In Patch mode, I believe there's only one effect per sound. So, except for maybe differences in global chorus/reverb, two different sounds in Patch mode should sound the same when put into Performance mode as a split or layer. (You won't exceed the three maximum until you try to split or layer four or more sounds.) If you combine two sounds and do need to have different chorus/reverb on them, you can still alter their individual effects for that purpose, up the max of three MFX total.

I just tried what the OP posted about... I did a simple split of Grand Piano DS and Perky Twin B... I didn't hear any loss of effects combined to playing each one by itself as a patch. The piano sound doesn't have any MFX on it to begin with, the Perky Twin B has one, so when you split the two sounds, you still have two MFX to spare.

Maybe I'm not understanding the issue... Can anyone else try this and see if there is a difference between the piano sound alone and the organ sound alone vs. a split of the two sounds together?

 

[Biggles]

It is pretty normal in keyboards to only have a limited number of effects available for a given Performance patch.

Not sure even how many a top of the range Korg Kronos or similar would have.

It is a bit different for the guy in front on the guitar as their available options are off the chart.

Gary gave you a link to guitar pedals which will work but an alernative would be for a multi effects pedal board where the required effects for a particular song are stacked in a preset and activated by a pedal press.

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The Amazon link is for a Boss GT100 multi effects pedal board which I have and I have even connected my keyboard to it at times.

 

[anotherscott]

It is pretty normal in keyboards to only have a limited number of effects available for a given Performance patch.

Not sure even how many a top of the range Korg Kronos or similar would have.

It's hard to do precise comparisons between "insert effect" capabilities, because it's not just about the number of simultaneous effects, but also the specific implementations can vary so much.

Kronos supports 12 effects per combi (5 on Kross/Krome), which I believe can be allocated any way you want.
Yamaha Montage supports 32 effects per performance (24 on MODX), allocated 2 per part.
Roland FA and Integra 7 support 16 effects per studio set, allocated 1 per part.
Kurzweil Forte/SP6 supports 32 effects per multi (16 on Artis), allocated any way you want. But the architecture is more complicated... a single effect can use more than one of these "effect units." (Rotary being particularly demanding.) And IIRC, EQ is an effect, where on other boards, there are typically EQ parameters that do not use up effects.

Being able to allocate any way you want gives you the most flexibility... you want 10 effects on just one sound in your Kronos or Kurzweil? You can do it. OTOH, limiting how many effects you can put on one sound (as on a Roland FA/Integra) can eliminate the problem of running out of effects when you use multiple effect-heavy sound simultaneously in a split, layer, or sequence. They reduce flexibility to increase simplicity and possible sources of frustration by simply not allowing you to create a sound with so many effects that you would not be able to use the same sound in combination with other sounds that also use lots of effects. But it's a pretty significant trade-off, andI think it's why the FA/Integra organs are poor compared to other "clonewheel" implementations... there's no way to implement the multiple effects on a single sound that you would need to get a good rotary effect, overdrive, and chorus/vibrato simultaneously.

 

[Gearhead]

Old post revival alert. I’m just learning about all this stuff. Perusing the Parameter Guide, I found the following:

From p17 of Parameter Guide:
“Effects Edit
In Patch mode you can use multi effects (MFX), chorus, and reverb.

P23
Effects Edit
In Performance mode you can use three multi effects (MFX1–3), one chorus, and one reverb. For each of the three MFX, the chorus, and the reverb, you can specify whether it will operate according to the effect settings of the performance, or according to the effect settings of the patch or drum kit assigned to the part you specify.
The three MFX can be used independently, or you can connect two or three of them in series.”

So I think Scott was correct that only one MFX can apply to a Patch. I’m not sure what the second sentence in the “Performance Mode” section above means.

I don’t yet understand how it handles bringing over effects from a Patch to a Perf. For example, I have another active thread now on how I brought Grand Piano DS into a Perf with Strings and it activated the 78:Sympathetic Resonance effect, which is not applied in the Patch itself. In another case, I use an organ patch, Perc Organ JU, which turns Rotary Speaker on/off with the joystick. When I put that one in a Perf, I lost that feature, need to figure out how to turn it back on, and I think now I can.

Jeremy

 

[anotherscott]

In Performance mode you can use three multi effects (MFX1–3), one chorus, and one reverb. For each of the three MFX, the chorus, and the reverb, you can specify whether it will operate according to the effect settings of the performance, or according to the effect settings of the patch or drum kit assigned to the part you specify.
The three MFX can be used independently, or you can connect two or three of them in series.”
...
I’m not sure what the second sentence in the “Performance Mode” section above means.

The second sentence (the one in italics) seems to indicate that you have a choice when creating a Performance made up of multiple Patches... either you can have each Patch come in with its pre-existing effects settings (up to 3 max) OR you can specify a new, different set of effects for the Performance and use those effects instead.The next page of the manual describes where to make that choice, under Common: MFX1–3 Source

 

[happyrat1]

What happens to effects when super layers come into play?

Gary

 

[Gearhead]

Super layers are in Perf mode, can they be used as part of a bigger Perf with other layers or splits?