Two tier keyboard stand and ideas

Discussion in 'General Keyboard Discussion' started by ChrisNabil, Sep 21, 2018.

  1. ChrisNabil

    ChrisNabil

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    This is my set up right now
     

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    ChrisNabil, Sep 25, 2018
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  2. ChrisNabil

    happyrat1 Destroyer of Eardrums!!!

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    If you're playing from a sitting position and you're not freakishly tall the OnStage should be just fine for your setup.

    I play mine standing up but I'm pretty short at 5'7" and don't really have to strain too much to lean down and see the screen on the Kurzweil.

    Lighting is important though. If the playing area is not well lit then you might want to add a couple of stick on LED lights under the top tier like I used to use when I had my studio in the finished basement of a house.

    https://www.amazon.com/Light-Fulcrum-30016-303-Wireless-Anywhere/dp/B00KY4W0KU

    Those things run for 18 hours on three AAA batteries.

    Gary ;)
     
    happyrat1, Sep 25, 2018
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  3. ChrisNabil

    ChrisNabil

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    I am only 5'11" but i have played the organ for a long time and everything is in "one unit" so this is all new to me in a sense.
     
    ChrisNabil, Sep 25, 2018
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  4. ChrisNabil

    Mighty Motif Max

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    OT, but I was impressed by the ES8 when I tried it a few years ago. Very nice action IMO. Have fun with your new toys. Sort of the current best of Yamaha's two lines, workstation and synthesizer. :)
     
    Mighty Motif Max, Sep 26, 2018
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  5. ChrisNabil

    happyrat1 Destroyer of Eardrums!!!

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    Chris >>> Not wanting to rain on your parade here, but instead of a Genos and a Montage you might want to consider getting the Genos and a Korg Kronos or a Roland FA-08 or a Kurzweil Forte instead to avoid duplicating sounds on both boards.

    Chances are that most of the voices on the two boards will have close duplicates and most pros prefer to mix and match manufacturers in order to achieve a wider palette of sounds.

    Much as you may love Yamaha's sound it really doesn't make sense to own two keyboards with the same pedigree in your rig.

    Variety is the spice of life and I am constantly on the prowl for new and different sounding synths.

    Gary ;)
     
    happyrat1, Sep 26, 2018
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  6. ChrisNabil

    Rayblewit Love Music / Love Life

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    Has anyone ever designed a keyboard with retractable or fold out legs? Does such a system like this exist?
    I can think of numerous benefits.
    Ray
     
    Rayblewit, Sep 26, 2018
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  7. ChrisNabil

    ChrisNabil

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    Thank you Gary, i have already had a Kronos and was just taken with the Orchestral sounds on the Montage and wanted some similarities so i would have the option of using the two boards more like a two manual organ. There are some great expansion kits for organs on both....

    I totally understand what you are saying i was just trying to cover all my bases.

    Cheers Gary
     
    ChrisNabil, Sep 26, 2018
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  8. ChrisNabil

    happyrat1 Destroyer of Eardrums!!!

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    OK Chris, but in case you didn't realize it, it's pretty simple to MIDI up two keyboards and use the manuals of both to play the sounds of one or the other. Just assign each voice to a different channel and it's possible to do multitimbral splits and layers on multiple keyboards simultaneously on higher end keyboards.

    Really no need to reinvent the wheel at $5000 a pop. :D

    In fact, I think you'd be able to bank $4K in savings simply by getting either the Montage or the Genos and a simple 88 key studiologic dumb MIDI controller for another $1K.

    Just trying to save you from a newbie mistake. ;)

    Gary ;)
     
    happyrat1, Sep 26, 2018
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  9. ChrisNabil

    happyrat1 Destroyer of Eardrums!!!

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    Foldable legs are a feature of the table style of keyboard stands, but nobody makes them with telescopic legs. More expensive to build and far more risky of catastrophic failure.

    Z style single tier stands fold up pretty compact already.

    Gary ;)
     
    happyrat1, Sep 26, 2018
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  10. ChrisNabil

    ChrisNabil

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    Gotcha Gary!, many thanks!, this is all a steep learning curve. The good thing is i can always do a trade with my montage at any point. Although they are the same make of keyboard i thought they both serve a very different purpose so i thought i was doing right. :confused::confused:
     
    ChrisNabil, Sep 26, 2018
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  11. ChrisNabil

    happyrat1 Destroyer of Eardrums!!!

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    In truth the Montage is a top of the line workstation while the Genos is a top of the line arranger.

    This means that the main difference of the keyboards is the focus of application.

    While the arranger allows you to play along with, create and arrange musical styles easily you are still essentially playing along with and recording canned beats.

    The Montage can accomplish similar things with the inbuilt sequencer, creating canned beats on individual tracks along with accompaniment, but relies more on the keyboardist''s skill in playing since it does not have the auto accompaniment and instant chording features of the arranger, but has instead a crapload of arpeggiators and a more powerful, multiple synth engines for creating and tweaking sounds.

    So with a gazillion styles built in and available for download, the arranger makes life easier for the mediocre player while the workstation makes you work harder for it but generates completely original content.

    My workflow uses a few drum machines and a bevvy of synths and workstations to create my content.

    This is another option for workstation users. With a top of the line drum synthesizer/sampler like the Native Instruments Maschine you can create or download backing tracks up the wazoo and use those for accompaniment, while generating the arpeggios and chords and runs on the workstation manually or with the assistance of the arpeggiators.

    While the arranger can produce some lovely chord sequences and arpeggios that have been crafted to fit the particular style selected, it is limited if you try to do something unexpected with it.

    I guess I am just saying that arrangers sound more robotic to me than workstations, ie. they lend themselves more easily to musical automation.

    Ultimately though, a lot of it boils down to what styles of music you are into and what you want to accomplish musically?

    If you are looking to play a lot of old jazz standards and old style pop music covers or C&W and hillbilly and Hawaiian music then an arranger probably has you covered.

    If you are looking to play some hard edged techno and punk and new wave alternative or score a modern film, then I'd say a workstation would cover you better coupled with a Minimoog or a Dave Smith Prophet 6 or 12 on the second tier.

    Gary ;)
     
    happyrat1, Sep 26, 2018
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  12. ChrisNabil

    Mighty Motif Max

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    Ok. I really don't like to start an argument. But I would like to clear up some things for the OP.

    1. You can create music on the Genos or any other arranger without using the accompaniment "styles" or other things. I own multiple keyboards/digital pianos that work as arrangers, but almost never actually record a song using those "styles". Even on my old Clavinova CVP-305 you can multitrack record up to 16 channels. Midi functionality is ok, fx routing is alright. You have to keep in mind that that model is from 2004. The newer ones are even more capable, and the Genos is sort of a portable version, but with more features, as its main purpose is not to be a digital piano. So, I'm 95% sure that the Genos can record songs without using the built-in patterns or accompaniments, should you wish.


    2. The Montage is not a workstation. Yamaha even says so themselves. They no longer make a workstation besides the arranger line, which are full workstations themselves. The Montage is strictly a performance keyboard. It does NOT have a full sequencer. Its predecessor, the Motif, did, but the "sequencer" in the Montage is simply a "scratchpad" of sorts. No editing, and no one has 100% cleared up the question of whether or not you can multitrack record separate tracks without playing the parts all at the same time. Should you want to use a MIDI keyboard with it, you should be aware that you cannot set multiple sounds on the Montage to play on one midi channel to be played from an external channel. For example, if I wanted to have a piano sound on the Montage, but set up a strings, brass, and pad layer/split on the other keyboard, I can't do that from the Montage. I would need to set up individual zones on the controller, and then if I needed a different setup for the next song, I would have to save another zone setup on the controller, if it can even save enough setups. So it sort of fails as a live keyboard unless you use it standalone or don't connect it to anything. And each "Performance" on the Montage can have up to 16 parts, but, for example, the default CFX piano uses 8 parts. So 8 of those 16 parts are used up with one sound. So using a simple midi keyboard may not be practical.


    3. Differences: Both have different soundsets and features. The Montage has FMX, the Genos does not. The Genos has the C7 grand, which Yamaha claims, "For the first time in any Yamaha product, the Genos features our newly sampled C7 Grand Piano Voice. It is great match with Pop/Rock/Jazz and other music, and is the piano of choice for many recording studios around the world." The Genos has the Revo drums. The Montage has the Super Knob and Motion Sequencing and Side-chaining. Genos has 9-fader drawbar organs. The Montage only has 8 faders, so it cannot fully emulate an organ. The soundsets may have some overlap, but essentially it comes down to #4.

    4. Do you want lots of sounds, lots of controls, and FM synthesis, but be chained to a computer for most recording? - Montage. Or do you want lots of sounds, more faders, and be able to record in the box, plus accompaniment stuff etc? Genos. If you want both, you should go with the original plan, Genos + Montage, especially since you don't like/want the Kronos.


    The Roland FA is still a possibility, but the soundset is primarily older XV waves with some SuperNatural tones that are somewhat newer. The FA falls far short of the others in that it has no faders for organs at all, no way to keep the modulation set while you play, and, maybe if you care, no touch screen. Among others.

    Kurzweil is another option worth looking into.


    No, I don't work for Yamaha.
     
    Mighty Motif Max, Sep 26, 2018
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  13. ChrisNabil

    Mighty Motif Max

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    They do serve different purposes, as outlined above. I would love that combination myself, actually, especially since you wouldn't be playing out. Perfect for the studio.
     
    Mighty Motif Max, Sep 26, 2018
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  14. ChrisNabil

    happyrat1 Destroyer of Eardrums!!!

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    Thanks for filling in the gaps Max.

    I don't claim to be a Yamaha expert but was responding on workstations and arrangers in general. As you said, the only thing missing from the Montage is a sequencer and that's easily added with a laptop or an ipad. Not a problem since Chris has already stated this is going into a home studio and not on the road.

    I still maintain that a workstation encourages you to experiment more with sounds than an arranger.

    I guess what it really boils down to is what sort of music Chris intends to create and how much automation he requires.

    $5K is a steep price to pay for any electronic piano sound, no matter how good it is. Throw in all that automation,no matter how many intros and outros and variations, they'll always sound mechanically identical every time you hit that button.

    I still think the average workstation (or performance synth) challenges the player to better himself and experiment more with sounds and textures and rhythms than any arranger ever could.

    Throw in a top of the line analog synth like a Minimoog or a Prophet and you've got a lot of potential there.

    Frankly I wouldn't begin to know what to do with 100 Polka variations and I wouldn't want to. :D :D :D

    I leave it up to Chris to outline his goals more clearly before taking this any further. :)

    Gary ;)
     
    happyrat1, Sep 26, 2018
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  15. ChrisNabil

    ChrisNabil

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    Firstly, i would like to thank you ALL for your input :). I have had a few set ups in the past but never been that happy with them. I choose the Genos + Montage for a few reasons. Firstly, after much research i came up with the verdict that both the Genos and the Montage have the best sounds out there for what i want to achieve musically. I am not into Trace, Techo, Heavy rock or anything along those lines. I enjoy some more "mainstream" types of Synth based music and love to play around with sounds.(Listen to the film Creed soundtrack and that will give you an idea)

    I have played the organ since a young age but nowadays its hard to get the best most up-to-date technology in organs as the home organ market is almost non existent. When i say organ i actual mean more Theater organ and church organ based which the Genos does very well especially the Theater organ!. I really enjoy playing older music from the 1920's/50's also.

    I have never been the type of player to play with a lot of backing. I can't stand watching keyboardists that spend $$$$ on a keyboard to then sit there playing chords with one finger and adding a long intro and ending..POINTLESS!.

    I auditioned a few other keyboards like the Korg PAX4 and the Kronos. The Kronos is a wonderful workstation but to me the strings and brass are not nearly as good as the Yamaha Montage and Genos and frankly a lot of this repetitive arpeggio sounds and KARMA bore me. I also thought the same of the Korg PAX4. The sounds are great but not as good as the Yamaha.

    In a nutshell what i want to do is play beautiful orchestral movie scores sometimes using the arranger but peeling back the styles on the Genos and adding my own flavor and also be able to use the montage for more modern or 80's synth/pad sounds. Having the weighted 88 key version it will also me to play straight piano too ALSO.. like i said i get the benefit of having some great theater organ sounds which i could not find in any other board!

    Cheers guys! ;)
     
    ChrisNabil, Sep 26, 2018
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  16. ChrisNabil

    Mighty Motif Max

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    Good deal, sounds like a good plan. I agree re theatre organ voices. The Tyros 5 (and now Genos) have the best theatre organ sounds you can get aside from an actual Allen theatre organ or some of the old Conns. Have fun!

    P.S. I also play and am a fan of older music. Piano was my first instrument, but then I started accordion when I was eight. My first several years of gigs were all ragtime, easy listening, and polka/traditional music. I branched out into Balkan and European folk music, easy listening (ie Jim Brickman), CCM, and eighties through modern pop/rock, as well as learning church organ and some Native American flute. Band stuff now is all newer, but solo gigs are still older and European folk music, piano and accordion.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2018
    Mighty Motif Max, Sep 26, 2018
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  17. ChrisNabil

    ChrisNabil

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    Thanks very much Max!

    I am impressed about your wide genre of music... Balkan and Native American flute!..Wow
     
    ChrisNabil, Sep 26, 2018
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  18. ChrisNabil

    Rayblewit Love Music / Love Life

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    I was thinking along the lines of the keyboard itself having integral legs (foldable or retractable) Not talking about tables Gary! Tables are for putting drinks on!

    Besides catastriopic failure can be avoided if engineered properly.

    What we need is design engineers to develop a method of housing built in legs to portable keyboards.
    Forget about Z stands and X stands.

    I put forward a proposal for consideration and development . . :eek:
    So imagine a standard everyday keyboard example DS61 or PSR S770 . . just use these two for my experiment . .

    At the bottom of these keyboards is a moulded canopy specially shaped for housing legs. These legs fold down and securely lock into place at the 4 corners of the keyboard. These legs are engineered to be simple sturdy and robust. They will be adjustable for height. The two back legs will have bolt holes or brackets to enable second and third tiers to be fitted on site if needed.

    Introducing the new model DS 61 WL
    Also the PSR S770 WL

    WL = WITH LEGS.

    If you don't wish to have legs then you can buy the LL models DS 61 LL or PSR S770 LL

    LL = LEGLESS (lol)

    The buyer has a choice . . With Legs or Without Legs

    What a great idea!:D:rolleyes:

    So Yamaha and Roland and others . . get onto this!
    Send all royalties to the "rayblewit preservation of good ideas fund"

    ;)Ray
     
    Rayblewit, Sep 26, 2018
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  19. ChrisNabil

    Biggles

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    Ray’s
    All in one keyboard.

    F4A7FD67-EB74-435D-AE95-FB5C2D8C15F8.jpeg
     
    Biggles, Sep 26, 2018
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  20. ChrisNabil

    Jeremykeys

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    While this is all true, I don't see myself buying a new stand for quite a few more years. I don't even see a new keyboard on the horizon. I don't think the bos, my wife, would go for it. Especially since my gigging is down to about one a year.
     
    Jeremykeys, Sep 26, 2018
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